Dear Cynthia, thanks for this!

“And with a visceral rejection of the oxymoronic term Dalit Feminism”

Echo!

In fact I have no patience with the term feminism or any ‘ism’ for that matter. I also reject the pile of rubbish that is passing as theory on the dalit woman!! By now I’ve flipped through most of the books and articles supposedly talking about, talking for or understanding the dalit woman, according to these books, there is only one kind of dalit woman, quite unlike the distinction you make here.

I can barely go past the abstract of some of the written material, on others I have dutifully decorated entire books, chapters and articles with pink post-its labeled –FETISH, a lot of it from women writers. I must admit a few do pass the stage from being utter rubbish to dainty soul searching.

Everyday I thank my good fortune that this is not my area of research, though my heart goes out to dalit women scholars wanting to pursue these questions for they would have to wade through this muck as review of literature, before getting down to the business of analyzing and articulating the truth.

I agree and see similarities of the black women and dalit’s women’s experience as both have always occupied masculine spaces to earn a living.

As far as understanding violence (the many different forms) which characterize the dalit world, to start decoding this with the aim of reform of the intimate and domestic lives of dalits, I believe both male and female perspectives have to be in dialog continuously.

Decoding violence in the hope of reforming the aggressor (uppercaste=state) would require the dalit-adivasi-bahujan perspectives to be in dialog (male and female).

Regards
anu

Dear Cynthia,
I absolutely loved whgat you have written. by that i don’t mean i’m applauding for your struugle asgaint being trampled upon by the mediocre society and the narrow-minded way we all tend to percieve and think op people different than us. What i’m trying to convey is that your words managed to sink in so deep[ in a good way!!] that i’m feelingh quite refreshed after having finishrd your article.
I myself am of a dusky skin colour and have gone thriugh the occasional “black beauty” taunts and being teased a lot during childhood. But that hasn’t stopped me from accepting myself for who I am and being a part of everything i want to be like my other peers and fairer-skinned friends.
Like i believe.. ” Beauty lies in the eyes of the Beholder”

Take care,
Ragini

Dear Anu and Ragini:

Appreciate your comments.

Anu: I do agree that the dalit-adivasi-bahujan perpective and the male/female perspectives need to dialogue. I think one of the big hindrances to this dialogue is the suspicion of the female that dominant patriarchy engenders in the subaltern males, again a divide and rule approach so that meaningful interaction between male and female subalterns is hampered, and the subjugation of the female is done by their males so that the dominants can benefit. hence to overcome this, dalit women’s articulations have (also) to be addressed to their men, so that the men will be able to overcome their suspicions and begin to trust themselves to a meaningful dialogue. Are the men listening?

Ragini: I empathise with your comments. When my beautiful daughter was born, looking golden ad plump with bright eyes and thick shiny hair, everyone eagerly lifted her locks to look at her ears - which are supposed to be the colour of the person when they grow up. And to see their faces falling in disappointment when they saw a pale chocolate-coloured ear lobe was amusing as well as sad. And at the age of four, she one day said “Mummy, I want to be fair!” - at that age! It did not help that her brother, born a year later, takes after his fair-complexioned father. I told her that our looks (she is a spitting image of me) were outstanding because we had smooth fresh-looking skin, doe-like bright eyes, and really thick, black straight long hair. so beauty was much, much more than fair-skinned people. Over the years she has been told so many times how pretty she is and now at 13 she appears to have got over that insecurity about her colour. She does say that she faces a little less acceptance among her peers sometimes.
So the battle for the beauty ideal goes on, but I think we are winning it!

Thanks so much Cynthia for this write up. We have discussed about ‘womanism’ many a times but after your piece, none doubts remain with me. Kudos to u for posting this piece and making a strong case against the dominant strand of gender discourse.

I also wondered why Kherlanji massacre of Dalit family including rape and brutalization of mother- daughter duo never became the issue in the feminist movement in our country.

Why the harassment both financial and sexual of Dalit and other marginalized section women working in caste-Hindu agricultural fields remain just token issues?

The lawyer of Shiney Ahuja could make such an atrocious comment in the court against the entire ‘lower’ caste women but there was not even the murmur of protest.

Also i feel the despise that is reserved for Mayawati in different quarters has less to do with her ‘alleged’ corruption. She is continuously mocked by media for her looks and her being a woman and nobody objects !

I am hoping for more such writings from you. thanks once again

Thanks anoop, for your affirmation. And for raising what is actually a painfully sore spot with me - the disdain and inhuman attitude of the mainstream dominant discourse to the constant open sore which is the violence faced by the subaltern women and children. Can you imagine any other society where the atrocities faced by the forest-dwellers is so much off the radar of public consciousness? Where the daily struggle for water, food, security, education and affirmation of our girls and women is totally negated with accusations that “now women are empowered, they have begun to ‘rule’ us - in the panchayats and we have women in most of the top spots in the country’s leadership” It is a mockery of our sufferings and neglect. As you rightly point out, the Khairlanji incident is a good example. It was only after the issue snowballed and violence hit the roads that the media began to respond and carry the news, but mostly focussing on the street violence by the protestors. And the judgement is a cruel, cruel joke beyond description. We need to actually dwell on these realities to understand the enormity of the task before us.
And we need to equip ourselves to grow to fit the task.

Dear Cynthia,
You have been saying :
“..For instance, it is quite common to see Indian feminists glorifying the Devadasi system as one which gave sexual, social and intellectual freedom to women..”
Excuse me; I never heard of such characterization of Devadasi system by Indian Feminists,which you are suggesting as common place.
Can you please give few links substantiating this?
How do you view witch hunt exclusively taking place against dalit women in Indian villages?
How will you explain that the abhorrently inhuman branding of dalit women as witches is reserved for single women , rather than those who are attached to some patriarchal family set up?
How will you explain the way entire village communities even including dalit men and women of families throw such women out and leave them for brutalization?
Why are the transgendered people being discriminated against everywhere,irrespective of caste?
Why the similarities with massive witch hunts in Europe that white men and the Church performed against white women in the emerging phase of capitalism (stage of primitive accumulation) fail to be acknowledged in the Indian context of neo brahmanic-neo-liberal partnerships that transform women to docile house wives and take away much of their productive roles in society?

Just leaving you a knee jerk response here; thanks- (Venu)

Cynthia how dare you write what you wrote without considering all the problems that pervades this earth of which only few Venu could mention?

The best option is DONT write otherwise write only when u have clear cut fit-all solution (that unfortunately you never will have) like someone here is hinting at

Can some body enlighten me please why when a Dalit starts speaking up she is either referred to Vedas or to Marx’s capital ??

Cant they just see that both of them have been rejected lock, stock and barrel by the dalits and it has happened more because both these ’sacred’ texts have been used to silence their voices than due to any other reasons ???

Sorry, BTW i forgot to congratulate you on this nice write Cynthia..Keep writing

@ Cynthia:
I forgot too, to congratulate you, not just for creating this beautiful personal narrative which anyone couldn’t but appreciate, but also for provoking such a response ,if this was really meant to go to the public sphere.
Critiquing would turn either to be bad or inopportune , I knew though..Please ignore my questions if you feel them to be in bad taste.

Venu and ankit, thank youfor your congratulations.

Venu: I was taken aback at your “knee-jerk” response, though not offended, and I do not think they are necessarily in bad taste, hence I am responding to them…

“Excuse me; I never heard of such characterization of Devadasi system by Indian Feminists,which you are suggesting as common place.
Can you please give few links substantiating this?”

There are any number of such articles; I am surprised you are even asking, knowing how well-and widely-read you are. Read the book (I have forgotten the name but it has the name of the text below in the title) - by Vasant and Kalpana Kannabiran (Kali for women, I think) analysing “Dasigal Mosavalai”, a text by a Devadasi campaigner during the Non-Brahmin movement in Tamil Nadu, to see thier justification of the system; also the very good introduction to the two-volume series on women Writing in India by Taru and Lalita.

“How do you view witch hunt exclusively taking place against dalit women in Indian villages?”

How else to view it but as more violence against women - it is no one’s case that Dalit women are very well treated by thier men or by other dalit women either;

“How will you explain that the abhorrently inhuman branding of dalit women as witches is reserved for single women , rather than those who are attached to some patriarchal family set up?”

The answer to your question lies in itself - Patriarchy. Do you see me assert anywhere that patriarchy does not play a role in the dalit community?

How will you explain the way entire village communities even including dalit men and women of families throw such women out and leave them for brutalization?

I do not have to explain this except to point out my response to the previous question; I would add however that mob psychology plays a very large role in such mass lynchings which have been studies by more eminent scholars than yours truly.

“Why are the transgendered people being discriminated against everywhere, irrespective of caste?”

I don’t see how this comes into my argument, but since you raise it again it is an issue of “othering” and demonising by those who do not understand that there is more to a human being is more than the body, and its “gender”.

” Why the similarities with massive witch hunts in Europe that white men and the Church performed against white women in the emerging phase of capitalism (stage of primitive accumulation) fail to be acknowledged in the Indian context of neo brahmanic-neo-liberal partnerships ”

I cannot respond to this as in my opinion this is totally out of the context. You really need to ask yourself, Venu, what is behind your raising this question here, because I see no real reason for you to have raised it in this context. As you have yourself acknowledged in your second post, it has evoked some powerful reverberations in you, so look within! :)!

Metta,

Cynthia

Ankit :

I think you have really hit the nail on the head in your response to Venu’s “diatribe” - to which I have I hope responded. Thanks for that very sane and relevant intervention.

Cynthia

Thanks, Cynthia .
Hope I’ll be helped by those texts cited to get a clearer understanding of ‘Indian Feminism’. and may be I can agree with you more.
About my reference to witch hunts in the West and Asia, in the past and present respectively-
By this, I really meant to express my reservations about rejecting the utility of the concept of gender in favour of a ‘deterministic’ category such as caste. It is said that white women equivalent to the entire number of people killed in the second world war were killed in witch hunts in Europe. This would mean that gender in a hetero-normative society continues to occupy a significant place with its universal ramifications; therefore feminism has to stay and to go a long way in challenging the structures of inequality between sexes.

Indian Feminism, in my opinion , needs to be challenged for not because it problematises gender and sexuality, but it fails to do so, by undertaking a devastating critique of gender.
Particularly in the context of caste in India, gender is too invisible and embedded that the crudest systems of administration of justice by the caste panchayats, honor killings, witch hunting, etc are often discussed only under caste.
This happens perhaps, because of the upper caste feminists’ insensitivity to the kind of questions you raised. On the other hand, eminent women righters while taking up the cause of dalit women, reject the utility of feminist thought itself , which is dubbed as irrelevant in a casteist India. This, I think will obscure not just gender but also the idea about caste as a system that requires radical transformation to the point of Annihilation of Caste.

Caste, which is an anachronism is bound to change over a period of time and that’s precisely the reason why Ambedkar had a vision of Annihilation of Caste. Instead of overtly challenging caste and Hinduism as a material system of relations, present day dalit thinking, however seems to be trapped in thoughts of an inescapable identity (viz, dalit).

Regards,
(Venu)

Venu:

The reason why gender is invisible in caste panchayats which administer crude justice is that there is a most powerful indoctrination of Patriarchy in Indian society to such a degree that all those affected - men, women, dominants and subalterns have lost sight that any alternative is possible. and those who seek to challenge these - feminists, secularists, and left- and “right wing” women activists - have not understood this reality, and to that extent continue to address themselves to the symptomes - say dowry or workplace sexual harassment. One cannot blame them as they lack the tools/perspective to understand the nature of the beast which like the amoeba often ingests its opponents and turns it into food. That is what I was referring to when I spoke of the women’s groups, who in the past often led pioneering battles on behalf of women in India, have now fallen into struggling for space in a competitive world of international funding and have let the funders set the agenda, thus choking off leadership and organic grassroots growth of the women’s cause in India. And those who could survive are those who had class and caste connections and advantages of urban life, language, and higher education. This is true of both autonomous women’s groups and groups which work on aspects of women’s life like education or health.

I do not belong to the group which rejects feminism wholesale, I critique it for its dominant political stance, but acknowledge its importance in opening the doors for a large movement for women everywhere.

As for the idea that identity as an entity is inescapable, it is not of my doing. The fact is that my colour, gender, caste and age will inevitably cause the establishment to subject me to a certain kind of experience, and I will build a perspective by interacting with the world based mostly (though not purely) on those experiences. So I am not only seeing things from a Dalit perspective but also from my location as a woman, a mother, a wife, a daughter, an intellectual, a member of a religious minority, a south Indian, a journalist/writer/poet, - and I am all of these at the same time. You or anyone else cannot claim that I am “trapped” in this “inescapable” identity. The manistream, in dealing with some parts of this identity, either affirmed or oppressed my on that basis and I have responded to that in the way that I can. I am not trapped, I am free to take action or refrain from it. I chose to subject my experiences, and those of similar others, and come up with this theory. I need not either agree with or buy into the agenda which you set dalit thinkers, viz., “challenging caste and HInduism as a material system of relations”, thank you very much! and no offence meant! I enjoyed articulating that response.

Thanks, Cynthia for this kind response.
Most of us are no doubt, people with multiple identities;
it is another thing that with the day to day struggles in lives and dreams intensifying,we tend to be more close one or other of these.

Cynthia’s narration about dalit women/feminists(forgive me if I prefer that term in this context,rather than womanists as proposed by Cynthia) feeling themselves left out of Indian feminism is perfectly relevant for me as well as for you. The point I tried to make was just that Indian feminists, (in my view ) did not glorify dalit women’s staus linked to the institution of temple prostitution (devadasi) .
In spite of the texts cited as examples for this,I could find no glorification there. … Read More

Even if I could agree with her for the sake of argument, I would still maintain that it could not be held as a largely accepted position of Indian feminists about devadasi system. On the contrary, I like to see it in fairness, as an attempt to show that devadasis were more respectable than the virtual slave women, the brahman and other UC housewives, who were rather kept in perpetual bondage thanks to the laws of Manu; they were totally kept away from education, aesthetics and culture, by the Hindu males. (Just saying that itself is far from glorifying the castiest institution of devadasi)

Ain’t we all glorify the monogamous family by our ‘moral’ acts and deeds to the exclusion of sex-workers, transgenders, gays and lesbians and people named as witches? Where is the sense of shame?

Even in the present day sex workers, one may find persons enjoying comparatively greater degree of autonomy over their bodies, than that allowed for the middle class upper caste Hindu ‘respectable’ family women.
(By saying this,many of the “Marxists”would argue that I may be promoting commercial sex- work, sex-tourism and upholding decadent western/market values as opposed to the great values of family).

Because of these things, I just wanted to suggest that rejecting the terminology and concepts of feminism in favour of another one,viz; ‘womanism might not help in the long run in solving the problems of exclusion faced by dalit women.

I would suggest that feminist theory alone can address the question on a libertarian basis.Hence, I would rather welcome dalit woman saying on the face of castiest ‘feminists’ this:-
” You are womanists and no feminists. So, get lost”

Dear Cynthia,
The above comment was a cut&paste from face book,while responding to Kuffir Nalgundwar;apologies for not editing it.

Adding:
It is not as much a question of bringing in a brand new theory; I would rather look for enriching Ambedkarite critique of Hinduism with comparatively more universal and update theories of gender and sexuality: for instance, feminism & queer theory.I see rather complementarity between these two sets of ideologies than incompatibility.
This alone well help overcoming the pseudo theoretical premise of ‘Indian Exceptionality’ mainly populated with the ultra-rightists, Khap Panchayats and Sri Ram Senes. Though this is the biggest threat to the freedom of women in India, this is also shared by people defending dalits rights, albeit on the grounds of exceptionality of caste.
Interestingly, it can be noted that great freedom fighters like Ambedkar, Phule, Savitribai Phule and Periyar just rejected all such theories of Indian Exceptionalism and simply looked for universal patterns how human beings interact each other through education and work together breaking the barriers of segregation.They greeted English education and western ideas of liberation even at a time when Europe and America were to be awakened to the idea of gender equality by the call of feminism.
… Read More
Certainly, no messing of feminism with Hinduism.
While Buddhism and even certain understandings of Islam could be interpreted in terms of envisioning equality between sexes, Hinduism can never be interpreted in such manner.
Those who even remotely associate feminist thoughts with caste Hinduism, or vice versa,may be doing damage to the cause of all women and great favour to the Hindu bigots.

This is my take:
Please feel free to agree, debate ,disagree or abuse..!

Venu:

I must confess that to me the connections you make appear more like free association. I am not conversant with where exactly you are coming from, so I will just agree to disagree with you on the subject of why Dalit women need to articulate their world-view in thier own language. I assert that they will anyway, now that they have started to do so.

But one thing more - I would agree that social revolutionaries like Phule, Savitribai and Ambedkar did try to establish universal patterns - and Indian exceptionalism was certainly not how they approached it. I hope by raising this point you are not trying to say that Dalit oppression is exclusive to India, because it is not, there are many layers to this which cannot be fully explained on one blogpost - but please also understand that we are grappling with realities at levels which are not accessible to all, though we will try our best to make them accessible.

It is true that great damage has been and continues to be caused by people who assert that caste is an ‘internal’ problem of India, because they have a vested interest in claiming an exclusivist vision. It is not, and anyone who claims it is so harms the cause. because oppression of one section of humanity over a another is part of this “cowardly old world” (as opposed to a Brave New World that we look forward to)

and oh, Venu, one more thing - I remember now that the book I referred earlier to is called “the Web of Deceit - (Dasigal Mosavalai) - etc…

cry babies. victimhood

Cynthia,
Catching up after a bit and wow how did this delayed but very obvious post get so entangled in its discussion? Presuming this is discussion and not the usual talking down to the once ’silent’ voices (silence in English that is :)). You already know I am not hung up on terms with fixed definitions and their limited or selective understanding by various users.

I read your writings in general as following the path of the past and present anti-caste leaders who have addressed gender issues, always breathing fresh perspectives that are so necessary to keep the movement alive and evolving. I would be surprised if you did not draw on their universal pattern recognition of injustices with comparisons and hence learning from experiences of the black and other women from historically subjugated communities worldwide. For example, on this blog itself Pardeep’s insights and notes on the Roma woman has a deep resonance for us, it is a tradition that continues among dalit activists, writers and leaders. And your articulation on womanism is very relevant for the dalit woman and man to ponder about in theoretical and practical terms.

Like the black woman, the dalit woman’s emancipation is coalesced with her community’s emancipation and that includes her man, child and family. A reading of ‘black feminist thought’ by Patricia Hill Collins should help fellow dalitbahujan women and men to follow your line of thinking more easily, particularly about womanism (in case they want to step out of the intuitive understanding of it).

Thanks again for focusing the light on these issues. Yours is a voice from within and for us! The ‘preferences’ of the ones outside of this world is of no consequence whatsoever. Not in a space where they have little control over our thoughts and articulation. This is not a journal where we have to toe the line of popular/selective/limited thinking.

Participation from those outside the dalitbahujan world is as always welcome, however, I am puzzled as to how a write-up of a middleclass woman who articulates on complex issues much better than a regular equally well educated middleclass Indian woman brings to mind images of witch hunting? I would have expected questions of why don’t we see more of your writing in EPW, is there some urban forms of casteism that you experience in the spaces you inhabit? Or tell us about your experience of casteism and interventions in the NGO sector? The background you give here would prompt such questions, right? So I wonder if the very act of writing by the dalit woman in modern India still terrifies certain sections, very amusing if it is. Maybe it is time to coin a term for upper castes taking exception to articulation by dalitbahujan men and women for themselves among themselves.

And does it not seem strange and interesting that except one commentator no ‘Indian feminist’ has come forward to engage in this discussion, maybe the existence of this place is not known to them, speaks volumes doesn’t it?

Hello Cynthia, Anu & others!

Here’s a long post, mostly some random thoughts that this blog inspired…
I read Pardeep’s article on the Roma in Hungary drawing inspiration from Ambedkar Saheb, and surfed through the web trying to learn more, to land on this conversation. I hope my participation adds to this virtual dialogue. I never knew of this space, or of the existence of Dalit blogs, which does speak volumes as you say Anu - both about the marginalization of Dalit voices (and also, on a lighter note, about my lack of web savviness!).

I am a tamil brahmin woman originally from chennai, but living in the US for many years since i was quite a young child. i have learned much about caste and my own/family/caste privilege, and am interested in understanding better, mostly because being a woman of color in the US has created many experiences of non-privilege or discrimination for me. these experiences changed my rose-colored lenses, so to speak, and allowed me to experience something different than i might have being a tamil iyengar in chennai. i’m not equating my experiences with others’ - but just saying that it shifted my perspective a bit.

Cynthia, your writing is powerful. I am humbled by how freely you share your personal experiences and insightful analysis, and especially how welcoming you were of some very acidic responses from your reader. how very generous of you to be clear about where you stand and still allow someone who seems to be struggling through his own process to vocalize his thoughts, without shutting him up or demeaning him in your space.

Anu, I enjoyed reading your response. “Maybe it is time to coin a term for upper castes taking exception to articulation by dalitbahujan men and women for themselves among themselves.” Absolutely! it feels much like how white liberals in the US respond to meaningful conversations on racism when people of color articulate their lives and stories for themselves. Brahmin guilt? I have often felt a knee-jerk reaction from myself, from my family (some of whom very much want to support caste annihilation), other liberal brahmins and even from other ‘forward caste’ folks who so easily dismiss their own privilege and histories of oppression by holding up a card of being not brahmin. claims of reverse discrimination, references to how the british really solidified the caste system, etc.

i’m also a dancer - bharata natyam, odissi. there is very much a strain of support within the dance world for the history of devadasis being one of sexual & economically liberated women, as you described cynthia. i am not so well versed in the academic and other writing on the subject, but i know that what you say is true. some of it is a fantasy i think - wanting to reconstruct a history that offers some moment in the past when women did have the rights that feminists fight for. especially for dancers, whose lifestyle defies some middle-class upper-caste ideal of the educated woman who would rather invest her energy in being a housewife, this seems like a glorious fantasy. i’ll admit that i often wish this is true, and from talking to dancers/scholars/historians, it seems like it might be to an extent - that it might be a thread in the overall history of devadasis, that some may have had some degree of autonomy compared to women in various strata at the time. it’s also true though, what you say (or what i think i heard you say), of this fantasy being especially dangerous given the systematized subjugation of ‘women of color’ globally (and of dalit women in india) - particularly in how bodies are objectified, sexualized, exploited for buttressing the lifestyles and industries of richer, ‘whiter’, caste-privileged peoples.

i’m not sure i understood the resistance to your post cynthia, if venu was somehow insisting that you were dismissing the lens of gender & sexuality (which i didn’t feel you did). my spiritual and political thinking are most influenced by buddhism, and i wanted to share that i appreciate the compassion & sincerity that i felt in reading this post and all the comments. seems like political conversations about caste across caste lines harden really quickly into ideological armor, and this felt different. so thanks for making this space. i’ll be trying to read more of your writing (and anu’s!) on the web… I’m greatful to have chanced upon this.

Oh, i forgot - thanks for mentioning Patricia Hill Collins! brilliant. And here’s another wonderful african-american academic and a great article:
Kimberly Crenshaw, “Mapping the Margins: Intersectionality, Identity Politics, and Violence Against Women of Color,” TF, 159-73

Cynthia,
Alice Walker had a different context when she was talking of womanism, I am not saying the term is wrong but I wonder if it can be used in this context. Like you, I m too a dalit woman, ebony, beautiful, and so on, but the fact is no one gives a damn in this country for ebony beauty which belongs to untouchable caste, so all that we have in our head after reading black feminism gets shattered when you try to replicate in context of India

I have been reading black literature for more than five years now and indeed have know some of these women personally, although they are very powerful, articulate and empowering , but I doubt the possibility of its relevance in our context. Good women cant be kept down, is a prelude to that concept, we stand nowhere.

Why I really dont think womanism can be applied in our context is coz we dont even have the support of our community on our side, look around and you will see half of our men getting married/ or in relationship to savarna girls (who of course look very different from us), they are fair, sharp nose, and blah blah,,,, the concept of savarna beauty is very close aryan myth and by the way what is beautiful in India is pre determined by the savarna gang and our men shamelessly follow that without questioning.

So the bunch of committed Ambedkarite, angry, furious, articulate, intelligient, Dalit men are happy to have a savarna trophy wife and this serves as a big ego booster for them (of course at the expense of damning a dalit woman). Though they might say oh we dont believe in this and that it was really a ‘love marriage’ but the point is they get married/date only such ‘good looking’ women, who ought to be fair and lovely, I know I cant generalise but this is an undeniable pattern. Yeah and in remote case when dalit man marries an untouchable girl she undeniably is very beautful which means she looks like upper caste girls . I feel pity for such Ambedkarite men and their idea of beauty which of course begins with fair skin, we should not blame savarnas for that, they constructed it and our community follows it … so you see womanism for dalit women in this sense is incomplete or rather doesnt make any damn sense,

black women redefined the concept of beauty in the USA, and their men (inspite of prevalent sexism)now make it a point to highlight the fact that black women are the most beautiful women. (I know the rappers exploit black womens bodies and whatever, but at least they are not leading an example of going around with white women all the time in front of their juniors) you meet any african person and they will tell you the same that they find their women beautiful, right from their kinky hair, broad nose, yellow eyes and broad hips everything is enchanting and integral part of being an african beauty,for both men and women…. now on the contrary you talk to any dalit man (or even ignorant dalit women) and you will end up getting yourself humilated for being trapped in such body (oh i am not targeting dalit men but i m saying they emulate savarna system in this case without complaining)
womanism has other aspects such as motherhood, celebration of women’s bodies, beauty, acceptance, and so on…they are integral part of womanism. motherfood for some dalit women maybe perhaps a curse, for instance which parents would like to have their child being humiliated for being of a lowly origin? these struggles are endless, i would rather choose not to have a child or even have my child raised in this fucked up nation, so we even redefine motherhood in this sense, savarna feminist talk about controlling the womb thats emancipatory for them, i too want to have rights to think/control about my womb, but not as a woman or as a feminist but as a dalit woman/mother.
Being a womanist is a big challenge and it cant be simply done by importing what black women say. i think we are too far from all what black feminist have acheieved consciously, you show me one dark looking actress from dalit community (there are dark brahmin women and if not mistaken dark dalit actors very popular but no dalit women, color is acceptable as long as it is complemented with a high birth and right sex in India (as in the latter case) so. where do we stand?
In USA …. halle berry, naomi campbell, and other black models could come up not because whites were kind to them, but it was struggles of black feminist (men and women) who contributed in bringing attention to these undenied locations, show me one dalit man who has ever written about how they perceive their women, dalit men only use dalit womans body of subordination to produce an evidence of atrocity and the indignity brought by violence to their masculinity, sorry …..dalit men sadly have never stood for their women and I dont see a point of being a womanist in such case.
the damnation of dalit woman begins at a household level, then at the level of community, and finally in the sphere of savarna led society and be it whichever sphere of ism, communism, capitalism, socialism, feminism, hinduism or whatever………we suffer at the hands of everyone, be it men or women, high or low, pure or impure the whole business of womanism makes no sense.

I m happy that you are writing about your color which of course as you mentioned in vinod kambli’s post was late realisation, i m getting my experiences published (the post is partly what I have already writen) in my forthcoming book which has described everything in details of being trapped in body of several kind of indignities..

and yeah of course, dalit woman has to carry the burden of bahujan unity inspite of she being raped, humiliated and subordinated at the hands of subaltern men and women (aint our men decide about unity and if thats political must be question of dalit woman and her dignity lesser than dalit men and their politcs?

Dear Sara,

Your response is complex and very interesting and I agree with it at many levels, here I am responding to the parts i differ with.

a) Rejecting discussion on womanism on the basis of dalit men not being supportive:

Wish you had highlighted real causes where dalit women in the movement paid a prize of losing leadership and key organizational roles or were/are being denied the space/credit for intellectual and moral input to the movement because of unsupportive attitudes of dalit men.
Unfortunately you choose a terribly weak argument, I do not count being propositioned or being attractive to dalit men or any man/woman as a form of them being supportive in any of my endeavors, be it mate finding or working out a rationale for a project. This kind of gender issues only annoys me.

I am several shades darker than Cynthia living in an all white town peopled with degenerate genetic code for the important molecule -melanin. I am human to their ghostly pale appearance.

If majority of dalit men, women and children are dark skinned, to me that means only one thing –less susceptibility to skin cancer. For the majority also happen to have zero to very low access to healthcare, are generally malnourished, become susceptible to diseases that have been a non issue for most parts of the world. Not being prone to skin cancer by our largely uninsured populace is a blessing. A natural asset that cannot get me to relegate it to issues of desirability to the opposite sex with screwed up notions of beauty.

Having said that I would like to point out an empirical fact, dalit men who are into dating-courting-marrying a certain non-dalit phenotype are a miniscule fraction of the dalit world, even with a wild estimate I would not put the number above 2%. Whereas there are verifiable figures that dalits are to date endogamous, marry within caste lines and all the married men have wives who are dark or whatever tone of skin color that characterizes their particular communities. I have no reason to believe that these women are not well loved and admired by their men.

So I would leave your premise about dalit men’s choice as a wild generalization, based probably on your personal experience of a small circle of elite dalits. Extrapolating this as the idea of beauty to the whole diverse world of dalits is blatantly wrong, if you are from S.India you’ll know all our Gods and Goddesses are black not just dark, names of people carry the dark color, listen to the folks songs of the Tamil low castes and you will see the alternate worldview celebrating dark skin color. If we articulate on this, it would be a lesson for other movements including the black movement.

b) Non-dalit world and color discrimination:

So, if the majority of dalit men are happy being married to their own kind, then it is the outside world that dark skinned dalit girls have to deal with.
Reforming or complaining about the idiot classes who run the media and fashion houses is not my cup of tea or black coffee. This simply bores the hell out of me as a task to change such perceptions. This is not to say that I am unaware of the huge impact it has on aspirations of dark skinned girls who have to negotiate institutions run and managed by the upper castes and face discrimination in classrooms, cultural interactions, universities and in job placement in both the government and private sector. That is dead weight I cannot put my energies towards right now.

c) Black women redefined the concept of beauty.

I would redefine beauty by working hard to eliminate the low access to health care for dalit women; I am regularly complimented by males and females for the healthy glow of my skin and hair. I have the privilege of having healthy meals most of my life –something that does not happen for a large majority of dalit women and it has nothing to with our looks and how we perceive ourselves, we are dealing with massively failing systems for basic body maintenance. As far as features are concerned the yellowed eyes of our children is what I want to change for the beauty to shine through as a secondary benefit, that they have good eyesight is far more important to me. Beauty settles around you once you have good health.

d) Womanism and diversity:

All of this has taken away from the discussion on the concept of womanism, Cynthia brought it to the table for discussion to work from it, not accept/reject it in totality without looking at the realities of dalit issues. One of the first things about black feminist writings you’ll notice is their acknowledgement and understanding of diverse experiences of the black woman. That is a strong reminder for me that Cynthia, you and me are spots in this spectrum of dalit women’s experiences, the spots may connect but never fully substitute, we are here to share and listen to these diverse voices and womanism provides a useful handle at present to do so.
———-

Oh: so many voices1 and such rich dialogue. Thank you all for your interest.

Anu: In your very perceptive response you have correctly identified the latent insecurity faced by men and women who are used to setting the terms of the discourse, when they come up against a voice they know they should respond to and if possible counter in some way, but when the source of the articulation is not “accessible” to them, we do get knee-jerk responses, to which I have had long experience in handling. Yes, I too questioned Venu’s associating my post with witch-hunting - he came back later in another post in facebook giving a less garbled reply, but still I agree he was stretching the point a lot, which I think I made clear to him even in this post. As to why such writing is not seen in EPW - I do not read a lot of the journal, because I do not feel very comfortable in its discursive spaces. And so I do not write for it. If what I write resonates with my readers and makes intellectual, rational and common sense, one day or other it will find its way there too, I suppose. It is a matter of indifference to me that I am not published in EPW. I for one do not feel, as I suppose many do, that they have “arrived” if EPW carries an article of thiers. I have been around for years now and don’t miss being published by them! :)! Actually, I have hardly offered any article to them. YEs, there are many stories to be told of experiences with the NGO/Women’s groups, and I suppose I will be telling them in the near future. Waiting to bring out a book integrating all that with this work, too. Watch this space!

Pavithra: thanks for your kind words and for affirming how I write and dialogue. Actually, I have had a lot of experience in dealing with these kinds of responses, and no longer feel the need to defend my positions. Thus I am free to just articulate my thoughts and respond without defensiveness to anyone who disagrees. It is really empowering to be able to do that. And that is really the core of being a womanist, I would say. This feeling of being able to deal with the unexpected “bouncer” because you have handled more than you care to remember!

As to the point you make about the ambiguity of your situation as a woman of colour in the US, but also having access to some caste privilege at the same time, yes, I too can in all truth claim that I have also had some privilege as my parents both had access to good English education, so I too went to very good schools and was able to access some higher education too. And as such, had been actually cocooned from any caste discrimination till I came into the world of work, and that too at higher levels. But my expereince of discrimination, later though I came to realise it, has been instrumental in all this work, so I cannot really complain too bitterly.

However, as to the point you make about the link between dancing and the devadasi system I do feel it is dated, because in TN and up the east the system worked very differently from what I have seen, and actually no longer exists. It continues to survive in north karnataka, where it is sheer socio-economic-religious structures working closely to keep the dalit girls in the “sexual economy”. This requires more than one blog response, an entire book should be written on it, which has never happened from the “worm’s eye view”. When that comes, you will see what I am saying.

Will read both Collins and Crenshaw if I can.

Sara: you are making many important points. I do agree that most Dalit men are in fact happy with thier trophies. On the other hand there are instances of Dalit girls - not all are dark, there are quite a few fair-skinned ones - who face what you can call reverse discrimination. One girl, an academic, has had endless problems with her guide who wants her to choose a topic other than that of Dalit women, because “you dont look like a dalit!”

And I am certainly not importing the concept of black womanism. that is why I am saying Dalit womanism. If you read the DAWNS statement - Google this, or it is available at the http://www.womenutc.com site - click on Dalit women - and you will see how I have tried to make it relevant to our context. And I am not claiming that I have completed the work, in fact as the statement makes clear, we have all to contribute our own inputs and own it in our own ways, apply it to ourselves.

Unfortunately it is all too true that we Indians -mostly all - are very much hooked into whiteness/fairness as beauty, so it is not surprising that there are few actresses who are fair in the film industry. But I think that our bodies are good, and this is true even if we get vibes that say “bad”. IF we cannot accept ourselves and our looks, which we are born with, then why expect that others will? As I said at the start, I am totally unselfconscious of my dark complexion, in fact I glory in it. Look forward to your book.

And as to the point that DW’s bodies are the site of much communitarian and racist politics, I agree, and you will have to wait for my book to read my take on the same. And your point that D men often place thier politics above the women, that is true, and again I have analysed this extensively in my research. So watch for the book sometime in the next 18 months or so!

[...] debunking myths, feminism, gender, gender-caste, objectification by anu on November 24, 2009 This conversation here reminded me of this first post i had written, it is one of the posts that is most regularly read for some odd reason, readers use the tag [...]

“I would still maintain that it could not be held as a largely accepted position of Indian feminists about devadasi system. On the contrary, I like to see it in fairness, as an attempt to show that devadasis were more respectable than the virtual slave women, the brahman and other UC housewives, who were rather kept in perpetual bondage thanks to the laws of Manu; they were totally kept away from education, aesthetics and culture, by the Hindu males. (Just saying that itself is far from glorifying the castiest institution of devadasi”

I am responding to the above para by Venu. A lady with an NGO background had recently shared a personal experience. She had gone to a temple in Bellary where the Devadasi system still flourishes. She has helped rescue and rehabilitate devadasi girls. She had personally witnessed a young girl about eleven years being pushed toward the pujari. The girl was terrible afraid and resisting going towards him, so on the one hand he was pulling her, her mother was pushing her and this girl was trying to pull back!! She was later sexually being abused by the priest in public view!!

Now if this speaks of empowerment–am not sure if any father could envision such a traumatic experience happening to his daughter and accept it!!

Not all housewives are virtual slaves!! but most devadasis are slaves to a system perpetuated because of casteism!!

Being acknowledged as ‘beautiful’ has been very important for women irrespective of whatever positions they occupy. The concept of beauty in India has remained uncontested or already set by the standards of the Aryan Hindu/ Savarna culture, so do we have to follow their conceptualization or we have to redefine the concept of beauty at least for our community? It appears that some of us tend to look at these important issues as irrelevant. Are values of self worth insignificant or less important just because they deal with beauty, is this aspect non-masculine to even address? Should dalit women only talk about ‘real’ issues and by the way, what’s real and unreal, who decides? If a woman is getting humiliated in a street by a stranger, for being a woman of dark skin color, whom do we complain? Where do we go for justice and how do we address this injustice? By saying, hey, I have flawless skin, and thanks to my color that I am cancer proof, is no lesser than pathos to my mind. I think that’s weird way of understanding the problem. It was hard for me to deal with this in the past and I have ended up taking some of these fucked up people to police station as my way of standing for my right to respect and dignity. I do not expect people to waste their times and energies on such issues (how does it matter to passive people or those who don’t suffer by such instance directly or indirectly). I do it for my right to existence and my right of respect and I don’t think that ‘real dalit issues’ revolve around dalit politics, and dalit testimonials alone. To me this is as important as much as any other dalit struggle. I know at least hundreds of other women who meekly accept these horrific humiliations and walk by ignoring to comments passed by such crass people, but that’s what they choose to do. If this means I have to struggle endlessly, I will do so, without running out of strength to address other forms of indignities. Anu, you simply have no idea what it feels like when you are walking in your neighbourhood and bunch of people assault you ,humiliate you for being of dark skin.
Responding to the ‘weak argument’ I think you are ‘reinforcing the value of dalit patriarchy’ which already preconceives on what should be important for Dalit woman and her struggles. I was referring to the sad state of myopic understanding of Dalit womanhood by her men. To my mind, what is important for any individual is the ‘right to dignity’ and ‘right of self respect’ which in my case gets shattered every single day. For instance women of all color and caste advise me on how to lighten skin color (home remedy, the besan haldi types) beauticians of all sorts have a permanent recommendation for me, something called as chemical bleach for my skin, ‘to remove my tan (damn it my tan is my color) . Be it my folks, cousins, friends, relatives, community they try to simply put me down for my skin color or justify my flawless complexion to ‘pep me up’. Now why should I (as a dark woman) assume/ think that my articulation on discrimination in this case is a weak position/argument just because it comes from personal experience of a very limited world that I have, and why should I choose to talk of leadership positions/experience of dalit women with men to articulate discrimination? I have no strong/weak arguments, I m not trying to argue/debate/, I m just testifying on a post that I thought invoked me to agree/disagree/share my experience.
Your justification of protection against Skin cancer only annoys me further, Anu, it is not about ‘acceptance’ and ‘celebration’ of dalit bodies and how we are protected from cancer, that’s not the point. I see this as a lame way of saying we accept your definition but we get a brownie point, thanks to the cancer proof skin. It is like accepting ‘everything else but not beauty, dalits cant be there’. Now about glorifying the skin color I think that is so close to a defense mechanism to reject and not to address the issue. Discrimination of any kind does affect morale of people, their self, identity, ( there are thousands of studies which show that) ,so I think we will need combination of strategies to deal with some of these systemic and institutionalized forms of discrimination against Dalit bodies.
Now my western friends who of course have positive things to say about my complexion and skin color say the same thing a little differently, ‘you have exotic color’ and white people are pale here , I get annoyed by that justification as well. So the point that everyone is trying to convince is, ‘so what if you are dark, it looks great against pale white people, it protects against cancer and that should make up for everything else. Cynthia you are saying that ‘you were comfortable or did not care for what others thought or perceived but my point is should we not oppose the world even if it means ‘Me against the world’ and especially our folks when they are also emulating this ‘mode of imposition’. I would rather question these psyched minds and question who has given them the right to condemn our skin colors’ , ‘who gave them the right to define beauty’ ?and why the hell they impose it through their literature, arts, culture, on me and my community?
Well, some of the correlation of color and healthcare and uninsured population, least to say makes me more hopeless. It seems like we still accepting the imposed worldview, and trying to carve out a space within that constraint which is implying some kind of ‘optimistic helplessness’. I will not ignore these day-to-day realities since it affects me through the politics of popular culture of India, which subordinate large number of Dalit folks. I will not care to look at them, as ‘Nature’s boon/curse’ I would look at this as a plain atrocity against someone’s physical existence, and thus the rest of the things are not even considerable to my mind.
Okay now about your empiricism of dalit men and their selection of spouse/date/courting… .you should perhaps look up the study of Abhinaya Ramesh on Buddhist matrimonial, ‘the Buddhist bridegrooms and their expectation’. The study reviewed the preference set by some 1000 profiles taken from matrimonial sites, newspaper, and community run agency, they belonged to different socioeconomic and caste groups within the SC community. More than 90 per cent of the bridegroom (Buddhist/untouchable/SC) profile preferred to marry a bride of ‘wheatish’, ‘fair’ and ‘very fair’ category (hahaha) . Ridiculous yet true. Need I say anything more? I would suggest you to reconsider your lens of using empiricism if possible. Now, if you say there are other important things that dalit women can do and should do and not waste time on some of these nonsensical issues then I am sorry to know that. It is extremely important for Dalit women and their existence to engage in some of the critical reflection about their respective communities, trust me this would not be wild generalization. Anyways men always put down feminist thought for being too personal and grossly over generalized for its scientific understanding.
Anu, I expected this to be a very democratic and fair space, why are you taking a wild guess about my socio- economic location, you mentioned that my thoughts/ comments are based on my personal experience and perhaps of ’small circle of dalit elite’. Even if this is true, do I lose the right to raise questions of dalit woman and her dignity? Anyways you have a very wrong idea about me and my life, pls refrain from making uninformed judgment. From which source could you take that wild guess that I have a small circle? On the contrary, I have been one of the few people (woman) of Dalit community who ironically had ‘access’ and ‘attribution’ of multiple caste locations, through birth, religion, family, and finally my marriage, within my limited Dalit world and this rather gives me a unique understanding of knowing four untouchable caste/communities very closely. Moreover, do you really rate personal experience as unimportant (feminist rate personal experience as the most important source to understand some of the most important issues such as discrimination, subordination and oppression)? What I know about academic is they will seldom deny my or anyone’s personal experience originating from limited world if not elite, I would have not had a publisher interested in my personal experience of what it means to be a Dalit woman in contemporary world. Dalit men can choose to reject my narrow personal experience I aint writing for them, I m writing for my rage and will surely generalize (at the cost of men accusing me for being non scientific) about the four communities that I have known so closely.
Your understanding of relating color and gods and goddesses is naive, I m from Maharashtra and we too have gods and goddesses of the subalterns who are mostly black. Unfortunately, none of these colored stones came to my rescue when I was living the curse of my life. My healing came from the writings of Malcom x, and Black feminist, they healed my wounds; none of the dalit world had sensitivity even to fathom what some of their women are undergoing or have already gone through. None of the stones, black and blue transcended to alter my reality. As a matter of fact, let me tell remind you though most of the powerful goddesses in this country are black and blue, but does it still stop Fair and Lovely and other lightening creams becoming the highest selling FMCG in the world? I would refrain from being positivist anyways not always numerical data helps in predicting trends and patterns. Nevertheless, some of these instances of discrimination are beyond my comprehension and clearly fall out of the scope of ‘cause, and effect’ relation. I know for sure India is insane country, it has largest pantheons of gods and goddesses yet the most dreadful forms of discrimination are committed here, they might revere kali maa, and still rape my dalit woman and then make her untouchable too…… it is an insane system of insane people..And trust me it’s fucking crazy to stand up against all sorts of humiliation and still not losing the righteous mind.
Well, thanks for your short introduction to folklore of the south. In everyday life, the common people may celebrate folklore, sing and dance merrily by them and celebrate all sorts of color gods and goddesses but in practice, the world is far different. My community still celebrate Jotiba, and Bali king, and see the Shudra- Tribe (so called emancipated groups) as our allies, see what they did to my Dalit family in Khairlanji? I will never ignore that against the so-called folklore. Look at the Thevar and what they do to Dalits? See all the upper caste scholars and NGOs, these pimps market our identities and pain for their survival… You choose to still ignore that…. As I mentioned I come from Maharashtra, where OBC- Dalit, the so-called Bahujans visit Pandharpur for yearly pilgrimage. Their songs praise Pandurang (vithoba) and his wife both of them are black deities, but that does not mean people translate that and respect women of dark colors, instead they call women as Kali/kale (of course it is demeaning). All sorts of attribution are done with an objective to make us feel ashamed for being in woman’s body with such an abhor-able skin color. Now thats largely my experience in this part of the land, also my neighbourhood experience was no better. I was raised in a Dalit middle class neighbourhood which had more than 5000 families , they too emulated such imposed construction blindly. Anyways I cant read and write Tamil but I would love to see the translations.
Now your position of this being as ‘dead weight issue’, I suppose this has never been on your radar so it will be unimportant to you, for me this has been central since it’s an integral part of my existence and in fact shaped some of extremely important memories of growing up in this country. I testified in the United Nation headquarters seven years ago, Kofi Annan took that seriously, my community right now is ignorant, let them be, one day they will paid its due attention. Until then, how would I or why would I not articulate and put my energies to address some of these inhuman practices within the community and outside the community, irrespective whether they belong to Dalit middle class, elite, lower middle income constellation.

On Black women and their contribution of redefining beauty: your redefinition is again related to material deprivation rather than questioning the social construction of savarna defined beauty. You are taking it to a different level when I said ‘yellow eyes’ I meant describing the characteristics of dark skin colored people, Africans generally have yellow iris and not white iris. Now white iris is not an indicator of health but one of the indicators of white construction of beauty, which again is not so common to the black physical existence. Dalits (darker ones) have yellow iris and jet-black skin, it is funny that people actually ask them to test for jaundice or say they should wash their eyes often or whatever, people tend to have yellow iris particularly if they have dark skin, but everyone thinks white iris is healthy and mark of beauty. A note on Mahar looks can be traced in daya pawar’s work, where he mentions that Mahar folks looked dangerous, tall, and pitch black and had yellow eyes, everyone feared them in villages irrespective of their untouchable and subjugated positions. I love my Mahar/Mang black and blue folks, I adore them for memorable war they fought and the strength of the will to retaliate with whatever little they had, but I will always remind them that we are most beautiful and truly untouchable in our skin tones and when we respect our women, that’s beautiful to me. That’s my way of attributing womanhood to my Dalit woman and still I stay we are far from arriving at a womanist standpoint.
What I wanted to point out is that black women were successful in carving out space for black women in fashion industry. They did not focus on healthcare (which is of course is important) interestingly , they got black models from starving nations of Africa and made them work accessible without altering their physical kind in fashion industry, suddenly a blossom of black color was seen on ramp, that’s incredible achievement. Of course, this does not eliminate the racism, which continues, but at least they got some change, that change is what I am looking for. Instead of looking at access to healthcare, or giving Dalits healthcare, bust the definition of the beauty itself, create an alternative view more inclusive, more emancipatory, more liberal , we need to expose the inhuman prejudiced views of their in every sphere of life. The point is we should actively condemn their products, and their ideas and views, which reinforces discrimination. It’s a long struggle, but I have already started doing so, and we should continue in our small ways as ‘charity begins at home’.
Coming back to how these definitions are perpetuated, here in Maharashtra, we had a famous poem/song, ‘ gori gori paan , fulasarkhi chan, dada mala ek vahini aan’ , which means very fair, delicate like a flower, oh my dear brother, get me a sister in law….. so this fucked up song reinforces the idea on young people and their mind that fair women are delicate women and perhaps qualify for being brides, their sister in laws’. Oh lord, our women have always been dark and strong (there are exception though, there were lighter skin tone castes and read R.V.Russel, how these untouchable caste idiot men and women claimed of Aryan blood lineage and thanked their skin color endlessly).
I would not mind if upper caste preaching these ridiculous ideas in their savarna world, I would be least bothered of whom they would want to marry or spend their life with but I object their damnation of Dark skin people and perpetuate such discriminatory practices. This is problematic and makes us feel unwanted, ugly in land dominated/populated by dark hues. This should be banned. Well, I would rather kill myself than even think of being associated by interaction or by marriage to such scoundrel of whichever caste who follows these constructions meekly; I would choose to be with liberated soul than prejudiced mind.
This brings me to non dalit world and color discrimination, irrespective whether i like them or not we all interact with non dalit world ( i choose to identify them as Savaranas (thanks to my grounded readings of Dr Ambedkar that has only reaffirmed my position on this subject). I trust Dr Ambedkar and Tupac Shakur as the most trusted voice than any positivist, communist, marxist, buddhist, post modernist, subalternist and bahujanist to understand the world of oppressors and their politics of association with the oppressed and vice a versa.
If we start looking at the non dalit world and their way of doing things from passive positions, we will as usual be at the receiving end. I know we are not interested in teaching them alternative view or altering their views, my only interest is for making a claim of dignity and self-definition, and in any circumstances, I will do since it has affected my life greatly. There is unrealized strength for each Dalit woman and in no way it is dead boring waste of energy. Dalit men don’t have to take burden of dalit woman’s emancipation on their strong shoulders, I m sure they have reserved their energies engaged in meaningful and realistic struggle unlike this one, a meaningless struggle.

Lastly about womanism and diversity…. womanism was coined by Alice Walker and I have been extremely fortunate to read her work on sexuality and lesbianism which were central in conceptualizing this term and in fact its usage became the defining moment and new start of politics of difference within black feminism/womanism. Is this concept relevant in quest of Dalit womanism, without even considering her curse in the first place? Have we even thought of defining sexist dalit practices other than their politics in social movement, why don’t we look at daily practises? Will this womanism be inclusive enough to account subordinated Dalit women, issues of color, sexuality, sexism considered or it will be dominated by the discourse of those who have been engaging in the articulation within the framework of concealed realities?
Well, I read your blog and follow some of the extremely important discussions that takes place here, I love them, and I cherish them and I respect some of the interesting insights offered by some of the authors. Sometimes I do get personal about certain issues but I don’t feel any reason for folks to believe that people are engaging here because they are ‘latently or uprightly insecure’, or because men and women are interested to have a voice to counter someone else’s articulation because the source of location are perhaps accessible or inaccesible to me. That is a naïve way of looking at responses at least of women like me and some of like you all, who belong to complex and multiple locations.
The point I was trying to convey here is ‘ construction of beauty and its relationship to womansm is not of surface level. Thee idea of beauty is not skin deep as people talk about, nor it is related to health access, or preventing skin cancers, beauty is a very well thought construction and very important for defining womanhood. The term originated in Black feminism and have reconcpetualised Black womanhood, so I was looking at the line of argument/ifs/but of applying it in the context of Dalit women. I still think it is irrelevant without discussions of beauty, sexism and so on. As it is we still have frameworks and prescriptions of beauty set according to the standards all decided Savarnas and unquestionably accepted by Dalits’ which demeans existence of my Dalit woman and her residual womanhood’.
My role models if I try to seek them in Dalit feminist movement have been a big disappointment. Some of them such as Kumud Pawde have been proud for their lighter skin tones (can be analysed in Rege’s work) and have got married to upper caste man by the virtue of their skin color and her mastery of Sanskrit, what example have they set in front of me, a colored dalit woman? Not that I want to marry a Savarna or even a Dalit, who believes fair women are beautiful and black women are black beauties, why acknowledge and make a color distinction in the first place, period, they deserve to be left in their insane world.
Anyways now about your point on diversity I m very proud, privileged ( hitherto my community has been deprived of good literature) and I consider myself very privileged for being an avid reader of Rastafarian and black feminism. I acknowledge, respect, diversity and million voices and stories of difference, my only problem is some of the issues need a position to be taken, and the same is applicable in this case about womanism. Please don’t interpret my objection as rejection to Cynthia’s post, I was only tracing the origin of term womanism and its irrelevance or rather problems of its relevance in context of Dalit womanism. In the past I also wanted to contribute to the post on Roma community, their situation is more close to the situation of Pardhi , Kaikadi, kolahati and Ramoshi than DALITS. Upara is a testimony of the personal experience of a man who belonged to one of the tribal groups a recommended work not to be missed. Also Cynthia your understanding on the practice of Devdasi, need to be positioned radically. It is not ‘sexual economy’ it is ‘sexual slavery’ another Savarna imposition inflicted on Dalit bodies (both men and women). Shamelessly some Bahujan scholars (I wont name them here that is reserved for my book) believe this to be sexual liberty of dalit women, fucked up caste hindu analysis on situation of Dalit folks) but I have refrained for posting some of these comments/correction/ and insight (if you permit me to use the term) for some reasons. Anyways that’s different thing but some of the articulations and conclusions posted at this blog are so significant, I loved to read some of the post and still consider this blog to the face of young critical dalits.
Lastly, womanism, was very much about beauty, sexuality discourse of black feminism, none of you including Cynthia has even spoken a word of this unexplored terrain dalit women and her sexuality within the discourse of Dalit feminism in the current context. A lone warrior of our community Shailaja is doing it in her ways but there is a long way to go. None of you seem to talk about sexuality (don’t turn around and say that’s unreal and not so important another dead weight, a taboo subject.)… anyways coming back to alice walker, her position about womanism (partly rooted in sexuality and her activism for lesbian rights) guided a lot of that literature, the danger of that concept was it came to be admired and used by black men who deliberately ‘ silenced’ their own sexist practices against black women, thats the point. If you note, I was still hoping that if Dalit men if reeducated on these issues (which some of them already think are non-issue or not worth of attention) would possibly take this concept more meaningful. As an die hard fan of Tupac Shakur, Malcom X and Alice Walker, I will still associate the term with Alice Walker, the mother of womanism. Anyways, I try to also locate the depth of Dalit womanism in consultation and reaffirmation from the understanding of dalit men on their views of Dalit women I find a little awkward situation without these basic discussions. The situation of Dalit women within the community is getting worse. Issues such as domestic violence within dalit community gets never discussed and so the concept of beauty. Some of the numerical data that is interesting on intimate-violence against women is highest amongst Dalit community, the rate of abortion of girl child within SC is on par with upper caste, if not so severe as Haryana. This is unsurprising to me and the womanism without sexism, violence, attributions of beauty will only silenced or sidelined from some of ‘unknown terrains’ within the discourse of Dalit feminism
Lastly, I m a little surprised that you really think that people comment to pull you down or are insecure. I know, each of us has space, I know it, and I can see it and no one needs to be latently or in any manifested forms be insecure irrespective of their caste, religion, and even gender if they air their opinion. I will cherish this discussion for long and perhaps understand this to be a start of a new discourse within the dalit feminism/womanism. In future, we meet through books and debates, I conclude, this is to be ‘Your Space’. Thanks for all the accommodation and discussion. I did not intend to take away/ disregard Cynthia on this post, I had some observations/comments/issues anyways I learn my lesson, henceforth I, I will keep them concealed in my thoughts and writings.
All my best wishes and respect to those who rebel, love, Sarah

Very interesting post and discussion indeed !

A few observations:

Here in US, I see Indians place themselves easily between whites and blacks in a vertical hierarchy. It could be because coming from India they are used to live in a vertical hierarchy. In this regard it was interesting to read Pavithra’s self-identification as “woman of color” and recognizing the discrimination faced by people of color. A lot of Indians here try to show off they didn’t notice any such thing. A certain section of Indians take pride in their assumption that actually the leadership of US in science and technology is because of Indians working for them, there is also an assumption that any new Indian that they come across must be a “meritorious” upper caste person. Though there still remains a curiosity in them to know which particular “meritorious” section of Indians the new comer belongs to.

About the love/marital relationships and the physical features, I wonder for how long this argument of “prove your commitment to the cause by marrying one of yours” hold good. As more and more interaction among the individuals of various communities/races/castes/religions is going to happen in future, asking people to prove their goodness by marrying within the community is not going to help. RSS-BJP may keep shouting and crying but Rama-Rajya is not going to come back. Love, courtship can actually be kept separate from the social/political cause. And one’s commitment to the cause should not be judged on that basis. [what about "Annihilation of caste"?]
Also, relationships are more than just attraction to physical beauty. And claims like “all dalit men go after savarna women, because savarna women have sharp features and dalit women have blunt features” are prejudiced.

In a black-white situation, the black feminist women say: the best black men are taken away by white women, and the conservative white says: this white woman cannot control her desires and that is why she is going with a black man.

And I don’t think, all dalit men and women have dark skin, blunt nose, thick lips and all savarna men and women have fair skin and sharp nose.

The way you have put your arguments, if a dalit man married a savarna woman he is the culprit, if he marries a fair-skinned and sharp nosed dalit woman, then also he is a culprit. Going like this, what is the guarantee that if he married a blunt nosed, dark skinned dalit woman he would not be blamed of marrying such a woman out of pity? ;-).

And what if a sharp featured or a blunt featured dalit woman wants to marry a savarna man? I guess, in this case also theoretically the dalit man can be held responsible.

Can getting married and having kids in itself be criticized as a betrayal of the dalit cause? I suppose yes, it takes a bulk of your time out of the dalit movement.

Dear Sara,

This is a quick response: I am a very dark dalit woman who negotiated the same institutions, roads, neighborhoods and a**holes (males and females) as you do while i was in India. I cannot say anymore on this other than the fact i am very beautiful woman and look nothing like the savarna or whatever the standards of indian beauty. Some day i might write why i feel this way and it would have a lot of the elements you mention here. I never sought a role model, though i do have a grandmother whose nasty attitude with life and men is inspiring

Articulating on access to health, food, education, labor and land rights for my people is my interest and insight gained via black womanism seem useful for the dalit woman with regard to these issues. Some of us can take the energy to follow the millions of issues that plague our world, i have my own interest and you have yours. The broader concept of womanism serves all of these on this we can agree, i hope.

The conversation about womanism just began did not conclude with this one post, beauty, sexuality, domestic violence and other issues will populate this space in coming months i am sure.

Point well taken about making a wild guess.

By yellowed eyes i meant yellowing due to malnourishment not iris color.

I am not justifying black color with cancer proof, but pointing a fact.

And finally I understand rage Sara. My rage is focussed on something else.

Women have negative thoughts about their bodies 252 times per week !

Posted: Tuesday , Nov 24, 2009 at 1654 hrs London:

Women worry about their bodies 252 times a week on an average, says a new survey.

One hundred women aged 35 to 69 were given clickers in an experiment to register each time they worried about the ageing process. Over seven days, the average number of clicks was 252.

The survey showed that on average women had negative thoughts 36 times a day.

The study was devised by keep-fit instructor Irene Estry and psychologist Emma Kenny to see if a looks-obsessed society creates ageism and pressure to stay youthful.

“It brought to the fore how many women have issues,” the Telegraph quoted one of the participants, Loose Women presenter Sherrie Hewson, 59, as telling the Daily Mail.

“Listening to others, they are saying what I’m saying when you think it’s only you.

“There are so many of us there’s got to be a common denominator, so we’ve got to get together and change it, change us,” Hewson added.

Hewson, who had a facelift ten years ago, clicked 1,400 times over seven days but admitted she thought it would be more.

In her waking hours, she experienced a negative thought about herself approximately every three minutes.

Source: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/women-have-negative-thoughts-about-their-bodies-252-times-per-week/545667/

Dear Anu,
Well I took a wild guess at your gender too, but I still stand by what I said whether you are Dalit /man/woman you are reinforcing values of dalit patriacrchy. I m taken aback that you dont even display the sensitivity nor can relate to the kind of discrimination inflicted on dalit women and their bodies. In between who can deny that color is not important part of large number of dalits and their physical existence. And if even someone is doing that its their problem.
As you said you are right, you negotiated with institutions, and that shows, I never negotiated will never, thats not a temper of raged dalit woman to negotiate ,I will always make it a point to stand by my right to dignity. The father of my community, Dr Ambedkar in this part of the land always said this ceasless struggle is not a fight for power, material wealth, it a fight for dignity and claim for human personality. My great grandfather was Dr Ambedkar’s body guard and in several instances Babasaheb spoke about Dalit physical existence (thats not documented in any text and autobiographies, you will see it if you are interested in it, reserved for my publication) . I take the point of malnourishment which has actually stunted the growth of Dalits over the last few decades but negating color is crime in understanding the once Varna- color based system of India.

The elements that I wrote about color experience in the post are indeed very important aspects of my life and worth of documentation and I envison it to be a strong voice in setting the discourse in Dalit Feminism. I m using my color, gender, and multiple locations of caste in much better ways to highlight mutiple discriminations at the hands of savarana and Dalit men and women against this Dalit woman. The material deprivation is the dominnat discourse in dalit literature as I wanted to see it comes close to language used by Shirwale, Namdeo Dhasal, Dangle, Daya Pawar they are the ‘mother of world class literature on material deprivation of Dalits’ and have imagined a just humane society beyond the capacity of any communist/socialist/humanist of the world. Liberation and spiritual deprivation of human beings were articulated, where do we see spiritual world minus religion in Dalit writings? . I see a lot of that missing in cotemporary writings on Dalits and indeed in Dalit women writings, I definately see a space there for young dalit women. And I hope this will be an exclusive domain of Dalit women and no upper caste men/women make us subjects of their analysis and interest.

As I pointedout that the blog had no entries on dalit sexuality (not only women but also of men), and my raking up the issue of beauty ,begins to factor the possibility of multi layered experience within dalit world. I m engaging in this discourse as again since it was a vital source of curse that I live by. I guess thats where my space is and thats where I belong. In addition, it is ironic that I work closely with some of the worlds most powerful trade unions including Indias largest women’s union, You gotta hear sometime some grounded experiences of untouchable women such as Bhangi and Dhed in labour movment. Anyways I cant stimulate interest here in rhetoric, I have my audience who can understand the magnitude of the subject that I was talking about as you have yours.
I am also surprised you inspite of being a woman (apologise for my stereotyping) are ignorant of the releveance of personal experience in research writing and literature. And by the way I m taking a guess at your caste location, but I hope I did not waste my time on condenscending Savarana woman who is confronting this damned dalit woman. It will be such a pity for me and you to be engaged in this dialogue, I consider it below my dignity to speak to Savarnas who are engaged in Dalit emancipation.
For my research and engagement in the field of academia , I work on labour rights, informal economy, and articulate women’s ( of course with a focus on SC and ST womens access to social protection). I work with bilateral organisation at a policy and implementation level and have been successful in getting social justice on my agenda, it is agenda of labour rights too. Pls dont imply that your interest area negates the magnitude of color discrimination or dangerous trend of color conscious India , thats the point.
The conversation of womanism within Dalit feminism is definately welcome and I m happy about that we are trying to apply in Dalit womans context. This Alice Walker concept has to be taken with a pinch of salt thats what I was saying. I still choose to forewarn. I m sure, beauty, sexuality, dv and other issues which I have ‘pointed out’ briefly should inspire others to write/to take a note of it. Until now the blog did not even mention these issues, and now if they get ‘populated’ ‘flooded’, then good for you, but I hope you certainly give some much due respect to the one who brought these issues to your kind attention. Seems like some of you are not even ready to deal with sexuality since you associate womanism very differently. Anyways you also appear to be a little unkind, as we known in academia we have a small way of acknowledgement by paying gratitude to cite/refer people’s work, ideas people, life and experiences. We cite their names, thats the protocal and in Cynthia’s post, I was surprised that she did not mention the context, or cite the woman who gave birth to this concept. Even if we say it is Dalit Womanis, we still borrowing it from her, aint we, she needs to acknowledged. That aint womanism. We are in great inpayable debts to these great women for understanding humanity from unknown points and should take every opportunity to express the unpayable debts. Of course, there are so many defining moments within Dalit feminism that I can count and in the last few years it remained dormant for some reasons. Anyways I hope my ideas on sexuality, dv, and other aspects that I mentioned here should push many if not write at least think of these unfathomable experiences.
Briefly on land reformation and issues of patta land, Ambedkar was never in favor of residual land, and was interested in getting Dalits to migrate to cities. He wanted the state or corporate to take over agriculture, so that can be really interesting trajectory to understand the south India’s movement on Land rights in the light of land rights for what and where does it lead. Anyways thats a different issue. Of course all of these issues are important and all of us have to work on them. In fact I also work in the field of social protection and involved in bringing attention of the powerful organisation to asses and address access of vulnearble communities to social infrastructure.
The yellow eyes, implies the color of iris thats the literary word used in african literature, so you got me wrong in the first place. About the facts that you tend to associate with color, such facts are already known and how does it help in undestanding systemic discrimination againt dark hues? I dont see its relevance and I still dont make them a brownie point,as I said.
I infer that sadly you dont understand rage, none of the contemporary dalit women and their writings has even referred to rage, rage against her womb, rage and her body, rage and her everyday abuse, I have been reading a lot of literature ending up with disappointment, rage is best suited for literature of Dhasal, thats rage, thats the intensity I m looking for , thats the source of my rage, thats where I locate my understanding of rage. ‘I use this term to differentiate a distinction of dalit feminism (I proscribe the word Dalit feminism in my context, I m bringing my own term to the Dalit world which is broad enough to bring my experience and others unknown dalit voices). ‘Rage’ is a unique distinction of great literary works in all parts of the world. I hope you sometime acknowledge that, rage is too strong word for your perception of at leas about this issue. Lastly, people who negotiate are too far from experiencing rage. The black feline seldom settles for agreements.

Gyan - thanks for the Gyan. Typically you! :)!

And Sara - thanks for taking the time to respond because I really find your take valuable. I am aware that Walker’s womanism has a lot to do with sexuality. I have not directly spoken of that issue in this context because I like to pick my causes and work on them one at a time. This is a very emotive issue and can really take one’s energies from a large struggle I have chosen for myself at this time. I will - indeed, have already made my position clear on this at other venues but for now it is the theorising of dalit woman’s identity that I am focussed on as I see it. By this I do not negate what you say, and one must prioritise one’s issues and work on them as we see fit. I am so glad you are part of this discussion, you bring in energy and passion and rage. It is your space as much as mine, it is ours. Really look forward to your book. One reason I am not saying much on the sexuality thing is coz i will probably deal with it in my book too, I suppose, but that will take at least 18 months or more!

Dear Sara,

Sorry if i disappoint you in not having the expected subaltern image (dalit woman in this context) in my writing, attitudes or interests, do take a few seconds to think about it with respect to diverse experiences of the dalit woman. Not that i don’t relish disappointing people, have been doing it all my life

I am not into humanities and for all that i read about dalit woman as in my first comment on this post i think what i read so far is rubbish, and the truth/s is yet to be articulated for which Cynthia’s, yours and other’s books will be beacons that other young scholars from the community can use to move forward.

This blog is about 4-5 months old, run by students and professionals on their spare time and we have not been able to fill it with as many issues as we are involved in. Almost none of the active people behind this blog are researching dalit issues full time. If this space is useful to articulate on such issues we encourage participation in populating, publicizing and managing it.

check my own blog http://castory.wordpress.com/ and browse through, there might be some posts that dwell a bit on motherhood and female body, i’ve been doing it off and on for a year now and enjoy it most of the time, there are more blogs and articulation by dalit men and women on sexuality and color in non academic terms (which to me is the useful kind).

learning all along.

Sara: I am not clear about what you are saying about “the woman who gave birth to this concept”. To the best of my knowledge I am the first person to have blended the idea of womanism with Dalit woman’s identity. If at all I have to credit someone - I have already done so - it was a friend of mine, a woman theologian called Evangeline, who told me of Black womanist theology, which was first articulated African-American women theologians who found that the Black theology which inspired the leaders of the civil rights movement in America did not incorporate their experiences at all. Feminist theology and Dalit Theology has also not sufficently articulated on Dalit women’s experiences. So clearly there was a gap there.

My conceptualising has just taken all these aspects and brought out something nascent and fresh which is still evolving, even as we dialogue. And yes, again I say - our womanism has to have relevance and has to be rooted in our experience. I do not take Walker’s articulations for mine, not at all. Only the name, but we have already given it our own specificity.

Cynthia, thanks for the explaination, i was simply pointing out the fact that ‘womanism’ as a term in the discourse of feminism was coined by Alice Walker, she is the one who used it in her writings. I m not a student of feminism but have read carefully about some important works. Thats when I came across Alice Walker and her work.

About you being the first to conceptualise dalit womanism i disagree, sharmila rege has already discussed/published this almost more than a decade ago and again she used in her recently published book, writing caste/writing gender. I apologise if I did not come across your work that I have referred to.

I did modest reading of Zizek on critique of (black) theology at Columbia university which was very good and enlightening.

Anu, i m perhaps sorry to disappoint you that this image that I was referring to is not ’subaltern image’ , i hate that term to describe dalits, we are the damned mainstream who were pushed to the peripheries much before the british came to india. Well the world of savarnas was constructed around the untouchables in the first place, so how and when did they become a marginal voice?
Anyways the diversity within dalit world is not that i m something alien to or not receptive to, i dont have to think it for a second or more to know that, ( its entire different world for each caste, color, religion, region within dalit world and who can deny the politics of difference) and no where did I deny that, I only said, that applying the concept of womanism to all dalit women is where I differ. I learn that getting disappointed by anyone who are ignorant should be a non issue.
And lastly thanks for the blog information, i still consider this to be an important blog for me, it has so many voices, though i m not so much of a net/blog person, i rather read the stuff that I need to look at in academic literature (thats what i m supposed to do), theories, realities, subjectivities, and of course no one should accuse me for being book worm and elite as I m grounded and I know the best where I come from. Dr Ambedkar always lived his life by academic terms, he was an academician and used the best of philosophies than random processing of thoughts and ideas which perhaps he otherwise was capable of doing greatly. I dont know how much importance you place in reading and following Dr Ambedkar (he forces us to be competent, confident and well read before we open our souls to the ruthless world), his standards are so difficult to acheive, i m still learning and whenever i feel like expressing on any issue i make it a point that it is rooted in reality and also locate it in theory, thats important to me. It certainly helps to be well informed, well studied on issues that we want to address it helps in getting clarity and to take an unwavering position, this helps in academia at least. I prefer reading academic work, i m trying to theorize ‘my dalit woman’ (she has multiple caste locations and is let down by everyone) and no where i say/belive this is is the only story.
Oh common, you think about it, there are millions of stories each is unique in itself how will this be differnt in this dialogue which means that If I dont agree to dalit womanism then I have a reason to disagree and a story to tell, and if some one is agreeing I need to look at their story as well, thats all I have to say. Anyways what we read/dont read/ write/prefer to write or read is subjective, we all have our preferences. I vouch by the so called academic stuff and thats perhaphs i come out as a bitter person.

Gyan,

I am afraid you see it as individual liberty vs. social responsibility. But I think what Sara says (and Anu disagrees) is that there is a certain trend among dalit men ( the educated/elite[?] ones at least) at the population level, when it comes to mate/match-selection. If there is, it has to be questioned. There can be disparate reasons for that, and I don’t think its wrong at any point to analyse them. Obviously, you can’t deny our choices are heavily influenced by peer pressure, pop culture etc- most of which can be neatly mainstream(i.e brahminical). In fact, the study Sara cites (I would like the reference of that study too) does not even study inter-caste marriages, it studies partner preference of men in an unquestioningly dalit forum. When you remind us Annihilation of caste, Sara’s case gets stronger, since these preferences are probably the ‘notion(s)’ in question.

Can getting married and having kids in itself be criticized as a betrayal of the dalit cause?

not marrying, not having kids can also be counted as betrayal considering the fact that social mobility is generational.

what a pity that some people dont even understand the topic of dalit looks?
I should not see some of the responses on reenforcing the stupid notion of ‘dark skinned, snub nose as and thick lips as ugly, vis a vis, the sharp nosed, fair skinned women as beautiful. Great. You only strengthen my prejudice, of course I m prejudiced. There is no science, theory and politics of emancipation, value free.
I said that the criteria for selecting brides within community that appear anything but Dalits is a dangerous trend, and thats the problem, why is dark skin, blunt or snub nose, thick lips considered as ugly? i dont consider that us ugly at all to begin with.
The issue is not about restricting marriage to ones community, the issue is about how we set our preferences in choosing a spouse. Love and courtship can be kept seperate(yeah for sure) only when some one show me how many upper caste men are getting married/fall in love with Dalit women? And how many upper caste women have willingly got their dalit sister -in- laws married into their upper caste kinship?. Are there any cases of upper caste women that are married in dalit homes encouraging/advocating inter caste marriage and getting dalit daughters marry in their caste, would this not contribute to annihilate caste consciously if not through emotional love and courtship? I aint believer in numerical data but even if we have 10 such instances, I will never accuse the lop sided marriage issue to be problematic.
What I know is some Dalit men are absolutely ignorant in understanding annihilation of caste, Dr Ambedkar said exogamy was perhaps panacea in annihilating the caste. Anyways you can remain happy in your world of conviction. In case of a dalit woman want to marry savarna man and if she cant then dalit men are to blame, ( i infer some of them have not even remotely heard of Dr Ambedkar’s work on Caste and its genesis.
Anyways in understanding annihilation of caste in the first place , Babasaheb mentioned that interdinning and inter caste were the softcore solutions and the drastic ones were ‘destruction of shastras and hindu religion’. You simply choose to pick the one which is convenient for large number of men. Further, Dr Ambedkar changed his views in his later writing that no one seem to refer. Dr Ambedkar suggested that there is no escape from this system as it will follow in formation of attitudes, cultural functionalities and so on as long as Hinduism and shastras were not uprooted. Selective reading, perhaps?

pls correct this one’ dr ambedkar never said that inter caste marriage was the only panacea for uprooting caste system’.

” I vouch by the so called academic stuff ”

I vouch by observation, that is my training. The academic stuff that has been written about the dalit woman until now, pardon me is crap, does not have the basic premise of observation, verifiable facts, hypothesis and theory formation. It is stupidly derivative. And my hope that scholars from within the community will challenge the stereotyping in these academic books has a little less enthusiasm following this exchange. I count Rege’s work as prime example of ‘them interpreting us’, very badly. Sad.

Now, I am not representative of all dalits but i am one. I am not interested in being desirable to either sex presently -too busy being a mother, working on my day job and networking with activists in my spare time. so feel a little off key on the subject. Despite the reality you paint of how dark skinned women are made to feel, I do not feel ugly, am able to negotiate local and global institutions with my dignity unharmed. However, I am not atypical of all dalits. All the women in my family are and feel lovely about themselves. All of my extended family’s women in my paternal village are beautiful (inside and out) and few of them have read black literature. The previous generation some of whom are my source of inspiration have not even seen the inside of a classroom. They are women who for generations have been involved in agri-knowledge production, contributing to resource production, managing meagre resources with the single aim of educating their young. They effortlessly command respect, love and admiration from their men.
This does mean that we are removed from the agony and anguish faced by fellow dalit women spread across the nation (we have been subjected to the same pressures in urban and rural settings that other dalit women face but we negotiated known hurdles adeptly, a constellation of factors have worked towards arriving at this state). I am not inclined to believe that i come from some model village, there are more out there. This positive women power of dalits is never articulated in literature be it poetry or theory. Why? Why is it always the broken, molested, exploited women representation that one finds in these pages?

Coming back to the question of being beautiful, have the well grounded theoreticians asked the question if light skin color is desirable between same sex dalit women? Do dalit women in same sex relationships feel suffocated by the morphological characteristic of low pigment molded as a social construct become a powerful interference in their choices?

Sara: RE the point you make about Sharmila Rege’s work, she speaks of Dalit FEMINISM. Not Womanism. And also the fact/context that she is doing the theorising from her “safe” location in academics, and UC urban middleclass has to be kept in mind. There are some Dalit women in Andhra Pradesh and Tamil Nadu who are also taking the idea of Dalit Feminism but to the best of my knowledge - I have not come across anyone else working on Womanism as a theoretical framework on Dalit women.

I just also want to point out that while on the one hand much has been made theoretically of the Dalit Body, and body and image politics in one’s identity and how stereotyping detracts from one’s real worth, focussing on this can indeed reinforce the stereotype. One is more than one’s looks, or even how the outer world looks upon or thinks of one. Remember Gopal guru’s tongue-in-cheek phrase “Theoretical Brahmin and Empirical shudra” (untouchable slave in this case)? Let us not contribute further to this ruinous dichotomy but focus on how each of us can contribute rather than lock our energies up in debates among ourselves - let us take on those around us in the debate.

Dear Anu,
I think you are from science background and perhaps have limited understanding of social science research. You are referring to basic premise of science as you know, the observation, hypothesis, verifiable facts, theory formation types. Thats the limitation of your understanding of social world. There are four strands of arriving at explaining/studying social science research, you perhaps know only one, that is positivism, which for large number of feminist is crap.

Your standards of observation, hypothesis blah blah as reliable source of data and scientific in temper, was ruthlessly criticised by feminist long long back. We have feminist methodology, critical social theory and interpretivist as some of the most important approaches in undertaking social studies especially for studying vulnerable social groups and they are of course are very very scientific.
Oh boy, black feminist and one of their biggest contribution was exposing the so called nature of science. You really have set your limitations in understanding social science research, otherwise you would have not set standards or parameters, the basic premise to understand social world. I actually should have inferred that in the last comment itself when you did not understand relevance of personal experience in SSR. Anyways you are not ready to know or learn, but let me inform you Black feminist have ruthlessly shattered the concept of science itself you can read some of basic works such as feminism and philosophy of research methodology.

The academic stuff written by Ambedkar, Dhasal, Dangle, Gopal Guru, Rege, Gail, Urmila, Baby Kamble, (the list is endless and I m excluding some of the north Indian and southern names here since I have limited readings of them) if that is crap to you then pls alter your definition of crap, your ignorance and disrespect towards this work, it will put off any sane/modest reader of these works. The stupid derivative is your naive inference on some of the most important works , I guess you have limited your reading to upper caste women and their feminism and have not bothered to read or remotely make yourself open to some of the significant works in dalit feminism.
Your ignorance on the academic matter is your loss. I m sorry to know your pathos about the academic grounding and contribution inspite of knowing that the struggle of Dr Babasaheb Ambedkar was grounded in academic reading, writing and activism. not the other way round, now that matters only if you see in him a role model as he is to some of us. Your disrespect to academia speaks volumes of your understanding of civil rights movement and some of Jotiba Fule’s inspirational work. How can you overlook and ignore this?

I come from a very academic family, though i m the first woman to get her PhD and the first woman to board an aircraft ( our previous generations were so much deprived that whatever little we do today, we end up becoming the first one to do it) . In my family we have grown up reading Dr Ambedkar, Dhasal, Sharankumar Limbale, Raosaheb Kasbe, my parents write for human rights and atrocity related issues, my grandmother was one of few teachers of her time, she still has her students of settlement area (populated by the ex-criminal tribes) visiting her, my maternal grandparents were close aide of Dr Babasaheb Ambedkar, its all activist and academic life for us,(and this does not mean we had comfortable material life, I would not even bother to dwell upon how effortlessly we were commanded respect and blah blah in our community). We lived in a middle class ghetto and we still have some of our folks who get into the gutters to keep cities and villages clean, we still have my folks undergoing treatment for TB for living in a congested and polluted homes, and we still have some of the acclaimed names in academia as our friends and relatives and still have large number of folks who get on the streets and dont try to stay legal like you and me. This compels me to place people, theories, and narratives of correct, wrong, incomplete as a great source to understand if not critique. I have grown up with a value of respect education like all of us which does not mean getting highest degree but reading and being receptive to all that matters to our mind.
Now your comment of you being busy to be desirable and relating to my understanding of beauty:
Its so sad that you have this appalling understanding of the issue inspite of such elaborate discussion. This lame understanding of beauty just to become desirable to either of sex is meg-crass. Its a cheap patriarchical understanding of the entire issue and that is why you are handicapped to get an insight of the issue. Do you think i intend to/want to link this as a subject of concern with people who worry about being accepted in this sickness filled constructions.. and do u think those who engage in this subject have free time and perhaps are investing their valuable/invaluable time in making themselves desirable to either of sex, its such a deplorable understanding. You implying your situation of being married, working, mother as the ruling matter for your animosity to this debate. This is nothing but appalling.
This is going to lead us making clear distinction:
I have always made it a point to speak for what exists in Mahar/Maang/Chambhar and the so called Buddhist world, I only say that I speak for where I belong . I never said I speak for the north Indian Jatavs or Valmikis or Dalit christians or Tamil Dalits and 1000 other Dalit castes, its too complex and I m not in position to understand the complex subjectivities of it though I can draw some commanlities . I prefer or stick to where I know the world at best. I cant help if I use/used Namdeo Dhasal’s word, Dalit, though I prefer far more destructive (?) word than unifying.
Also, your negotiations with global-local institutions and association is good for you and your family, it hardly matters to my critique of the world where I live, i m not asking anyone to support it or refute it, thats my story, and i have my audience who are interested to know about it. I lived a large part of my life in India, Europe and USA and have understood interacted with some of institutions closely. I was never captivated either by the exotic beauty tag/not so good/ugly/black beauty /whatever but I was trying to understand what shapes these constructions and how I can be a voice that condemns both.

And you seem not to have kept update with critique of traditional/indigenious knowledge, it does not translate into empowerement of these people in the first place, yeah but gives them acknowledgement through IPR. Talking of similar to something as indigenious knowledge, we have Mahar community in Maharashtra and it is still considered to be the best reliable source for land records if not argicultural knowledge , but how does it matter in my context? I come from drought prone region, and agriculture was sparse thought not bondage of slavery, cant simply get into, this space is reserved for other who know it best.
I dont look at the positive aspects of my community and retheorise contribution of my women, it is there, pls see aidan, majya jalamachi chittrakatha, marankala, amhi itihaas ghadavala, ‘ i dont have to rework on that. . Now Anu, you are contradicting yourself last time you were more concerned about material deprivation of dalits and now you questioning the gap on positive world of Dalits? I can only say you cant question my area of interest in academia, as i have the right to choose and decide which aspect of dalit issues i want to work on. You can ignore/critique me and other people, you have your right to do so. Unfortunately I m a depressingly a pessimist person, cant be content with the exisiting form of world and I dont try to locate positive aspects within the overarching negative realities, so I choose destruction rather than creation, thats my way of doing things at this point in time. Anyone can hate me for that. I m a sad person, since I m alive.
And pls read R.V.Russel, I mentioned this in the last comment as well , though he is not theoretician, will answer your questions about understanding and aspiration of lighter skin within dalit world. Same sex realationship and what shapes choices is something i cant comment upon, same sex relationship for that matter is still a taboo for the dalit world and I already mentioned that before. Its funny you are questioning me the one who already raised this as unresearched topic in the begining itself.
I might ask you a question that why are you refuting the voice of this dalit woman who has lived by the curse of color, gender and caste and I aint even talking about material deprivation and assault. I m not painting my reality, I m too good to set it straight than paint. I am a f***ing enraged woman who will expose some of the atrocities done on me as a child, adoloscent and as an adult, and had the righteous mind to stand up for those who like me get discriminated. I did not loose even a gram of courage to fight back though I was shattered within, the world will listen to this and i dont give a damn who want to refute this or want to show me how they have dealt with it, I simply dont care and this doesnt mean that I lived my life thinking myself as a poor, ugly, lonely, rejected dalit child. I fought for my right of self determination without compromising on my dignity. What do dalits fight endlessly for, its dignity and pity that you think you are alone. The definition of Dalits for me begins with Dignity. Dalits are known for that. I did that as a child and continue to do so. Let people blow their trumpets of their negotiations or refutations. I speak for my world and let me see who can deny my claim to this space.
I can only say that inspite of you reading black literature you are not aware about some of the significant literary/activist work done by black men and women on color and gender. Rege is important to me as an academician, if that makes you sad, I cant help it. I acknowledge to contributions, though one can critique or /refute it. I believe in acknowledgement and if someone deserve an applaude i do it straight from my heart, thats me. And lastly I have a long long way to go, to learn, to read and contribute to my field, becasue I believe in it. I m not here becasue I have to do it for the heck of my interest and coz my life is committed to dalit cause, i m in quest of my own liberation and I need to find answers for myself in this world that i live, I dont borrow or trace them in other people’s lives, though I have a heart and soul which is receptive to the commanlities, but it ends there, my war is also for liberation of my folks and their ignorant minds, and not for adjusting and attuning to the imposed world. In academia/literature/activism, I m still a child, I have a long way to go, I m still learning but what I know is, I have arrived,
Sarah

Please step back and look/read about the role of women in science and their pioneering contribution to feminist thought, plenty of material available i am not interested in name dropping of what has been read or name calling you. About sexuality do take some time to read Michel Foucault’s two crisp volumes on the same and see were and if ever it explains the dalit/indian woman’s sexuality.
-

>>The academic stuff written by Ambedkar, Dhasal, Dangle, Gopal Guru, Rege, Gail, Urmila, Baby Kamble, (the list is endless and I m excluding some of the north Indian and southern names here since I have limited readings of them)

if that is crap to you then pls alter your definition of crap,

I don’t have too.

Will emphasize though that it is the academic writing on the dalit woman from the UC’ versions that makes me say that.

Prabin: Thanks for that thoughtful response. Both points you make - about whether, and if so, why educated elite dalit men are making choices to marry/date more dalit girls (by saying this I hope we do not play into the notions of endogamy, but engage critically) - and by your agreeing that it should be examined. Yes, I think so too. We should talk about it, write about it, become more conscious of it and not do things without thinking things through. For instance, I have often wondered why I finally married someone whose phenotype is the opposite of what I consider really attractive namely- tall and dark-complexioned. And thereby hangs a tale which I am not telling now! ;)!

Also for pointing out that not marrying and having children can also affect the next generation adversely - there are things to be said on both sides of th question, but the choice of remaining single for the sake of a larger cause is not something that everyone can make. So at least when we do marry and have children, we must not forget the larger cause bt really make an effort at whatever level we can to make a difference.

Sara

Since you claim not be a net or blog person, here is some information, it is a place the interfaces many voices from many backgrounds and no matter what fancy academic or political spaces writers may occupy, there is a deliberate attempt to tone down academic verbiage in conversations. Not to be simple to the reader but largely because the reader is astute enough to know that verbosity does not mean thought. This is space for natural, evolving thoughts not a space for reproduction of journal material.

>> Your disrespect to academia speaks volumes of your understanding of civil rights movement and some of Jotiba Fule’s inspirational work. How can you overlook and ignore this?<<

This is the only relevant and useful question you have asked so far.

Academia riding on Phule’s inspirational work has been on a progressively disappointing trajectory as far as the oppressed are concerned.
You have no idea at the level of disrespect i have for contemporary academics, working from within brahminical structures the dalits and their UC mentors in academia are really a sorry lot with respect to their contribution to reworking frameworks for the oppressed.

what the hellish response, woman, what a sorry person you ended up to be , just because i engaged more in a serious dialog * to which you responded, more with information and depth, does that mean i m intending to reproduce journal material. you think you are a publisher and i m trying to impress you or i m writing to score over you.
Damn, there are thousands of other spaces where i can go and do that and get sensible/learned feedback than this outrageous disgust. You have prejudiced/uninformed understanding and perhaps negative way of looking at ‘me’ visiting your blog for my crime of questioning your sorry state of knowledge on few issues, henceforth just say this blog is restricted for your community and group of castes/religion that you associate with, period.

You are simply too prejudiced against me and consider me to be elite (?) educated academic or political. I dont want to humiliated in this way for my insistence on information that i had, you have weird ideas and notions of some of the social issues. This is a lesson of my damned life that how some women are good at imposing and ignoring meaninful concerns, you learnt from upper caste, i suppose . I will never visit this blog , u can perhaps ban my entire community that i belong to. I still say that I seldom visit people’s blog and i thought this was interesting space as some of the post were natural, intellectual, well researched, and had intellectuals like cynthia and one of my most trusted dalit feminist voice, prabin. they were the only reasons that i visited this space uninvited. its so pity that few hours back you mentioned you want diversity to the blog, more people coming to the platform and now you are reeducating me and defining what this space means. look into your heart, i know if you are so furious at me for bringing some serious academic stuff to the discussion (because i relate to this issue as something not many people have addressed which is essential aspect of dalit womanhood) and i dont want to be at receiving end of your wrath for pointing your ignorance. you are reacting to my valid questions and focusing on showing me how i dont belong here. ofcourse i dont belong here, to your natural world, but if i choose to shut up and keep on praising your natural though (not the journal material) perhaps i will be a good/decent/dalit woman,, but if i question, i should get out of this space. I understand this space is for those who stick to their natural evolving thoughts and not to those unfortunate like me who want to take it further. I really have better things to do in life and have ample of spaces to reproduce my thoughts (trust me natural) in journal or books but i did not know how people can get nasty for correcting their random and natural thoughts.
who wants humiliation at the end of the day for questioning? , i understand you showing disrespect towards academia. You are really sound ignorant and awful when you disrespect academician of oppressed locations without reading them.
thanks for the disrespect which is basically an ignorance towards academia which shows that some of names that i mentioned here were all dalits (hahaha) except rege (rege is important to my women, though i have loads of disagreements with her but she enaged in meaninful and some of the most important debates in discourse of feminism in india, i cant help if you dont see it or read it write it) and she was not my PhD guide. Nor have I been mentored by savarna again what a pitiable inference, you can go on disrespecting me and my folks, this is not new to us. You seem to have got bothered about science, women and their contribution, i m referring to the so called construction of science. how is that you recognise women doing science and their contribution and reject others from social science?

i dont intend to ask you relevant or useful question, further it will be truly to save my sanity and dignity not to visit this very democratic, space, i learn that it is meant for people like you, for natural thought lovers which gets now clearly defined , i never intended to write journal material (thanks for the pang of whatever emotion you went through while you read me) i have ‘worthy’ spaces available in abundance this blog is not end or beginning of my world.
You seem to be a sorry person simply accusing some of the dalit academician without even reading what they have written. none of the oppressed person of Maharashtra that i have read has ever been a disappointment, there are hundreds of names available in Marathi that i can give you before you conclude, you dont read marathi nor you acknowledge it, for your kind attention you dont even spell Fule correctly, Fule is the correct way, dalit way, Brahmin academics write it /spell it as PHULE, read some basics man, before you accuse people. Again I m sure you dont note these important disntictions becasue you dont read but simply sit on the fence and pick up stones and accuse people, how valid is this accusation, ask yourself? Did you ever know Dalit academicians even refute to terminologies and the ways of brahmni spellings? No you dont. But you surely can go on and on ignoring, accusing, disrespecting anyone except your self.

Can you sometime humbly acknowledge the fact that you are accusing people without reading them, without even knowing their names and their work? Pity. Well you can say that we dont have public intellectuals, i will support that, but just saying becasue they are your natural thoughts of writing is where i disagree……

I m so thankful that I was never mentored by any savarna/ upper caste for what I do for my research on Dalits. Though I have my PhD from India, my mentor is not a savarna. So you can blame/accuse and feel sorry for that lot (which i dont belong to)and preferably your people (the folks that i mentioned are revered worldwide and i m so damn proud of the fact that they are of my community )you are showing what exactly others do to us, to keep our morale down- you silence, you sideline, you marginalise and you disrespect, condemn, disrespect, and humiliate. You would have no qualms had your daughter/community woman/friend blogger corrected you, you have qualms that some well read dalit woman is disagreeing with you.
I think you tend to locate sexuality and its discourse only in focualt , he is a start up reading and ends there, we are way ahead of this, pls try to meet/discuss with ramesh kamble, abhinaya ramesh one of the most articulate voices in the history of world feminism discourse (dalit/non dalit) and their upcoming work but i think you dont even know them and probably they do not interest you perhaps because they vouch by the academic stuff. Ramesh Kamble has already de-constructed Foucault and his types. i had rightly concluded,and should have not taken it further, this is your space, and this is where it ends you have shown how you respectfully you can deal with forceful thoughts, i know you like random and natural thought, they easier to handle. Thanks.
I leave with a well known poem for you:
I used to sing this well known poem as a kiddo and then as adult to the savarna and now unfortunately and sadly i read it for you:
You may write me down in history
With your bitter, twisted lies,
You may trod me in the very dirt
But still, like dust, I’ll rise.

Does my sassiness upset you?
Why are you beset with gloom?
‘Cause I walk like I’ve got oil wells
Pumping in my living room.

Just like moons and like suns,
With the certainty of tides,
Just like hopes springing high,
Still I’ll rise.

Did you want to see me broken?
Bowed head and lowered eyes?
Shoulders falling down like teardrops.
Weakened by my soulful cries.

Does my haughtiness offend you?
Don’t you take it awful hard
‘Cause I laugh like I’ve got gold mines
Diggin’ in my own back yard.

You may shoot me with your words,
You may cut me with your eyes,
You may kill me with your hatefulness,
But still, like air, I’ll rise.

Does my sexiness upset you?
Does it come as a surprise
That I dance like I’ve got diamonds
At the meeting of my thighs?

Out of the huts of history’s shame
I rise
Up from a past that’s rooted in pain
I rise
I’m a black ocean, leaping and wide,
Welling and swelling I bear in the tide.
Leaving behind nights of terror and fear
I rise
Into a daybreak that’s wondrously clear
I rise
Bringing the gifts that my ancestors gave,
I am the dream and the hope of the slave.
I rise
I rise
I rise.
Dr Angelou

>>Oh boy, black feminist and one of their biggest contributions were exposing the so-called nature of science. You really have set your limitations in understanding social science research<<

This is based on the assumption that social science is not science. Science is part of society, an old and continuing human endeavor, not restricted to universities. Dalitbahujan scholars like Kancha Ilaiah have long recognized this as elemental for dalit identity and emancipation and articulate lucidly on this. There are places that black and other culture’s experiences and articulation can work for us and in some others have limited relevance. To understand science and its relation to social science and release from stereotypes and a means of regain of ownership of knowledge and processes for dalitbahujan, Ilaiah’s work is an intuitive and powerful guide.

In general:

A lot of what is written in blogs is not personal exhibition of ‘thorough’/limited/selective reasoning unlike academic writings. So please, readers and commentators are encouraged not to see personal attacks on their way of seeing things. The counterpoints are being tabled; it is the larger audience of readers that we are talking to. Emails are available for disagreement of the personal kind; please use that means when doing so. Here we would like to focus on issues and move ahead with all the topics that come up during a discussion. In the above discussion I have failed in every candid attempt to point out that differences and perceptions exist in the dalit world and in the course stunted the conversations to a few limited topics by few voices alone. We who are working to use the internet as a secular non-hegemonic space to build trust and commonalities are deeply conscious of giving every reader and response his/its adequate space, we are very interested in non academic view points that are out there, we have worked hard at creating this space as a polite atmosphere for exchange of ideas, we would like to continue doing so.

We want the ones who have had no access to any kind of reading material except school textbooks to be able to share his/her worldview. And this being a space for the dalit-adivasi-bahujan with a large population of students who come with no access to extraneous reading we aim to keep this place as friendly and welcoming to ungrammatical and less ‘learned’ opinions where the richness and unique insights they bring to this forum are eagerly sought and assimilated into the discourse. Academics responsive to the internet as one of the most powerful and secular means available for us, kindly refrain from snobbery reserved for academic environs, some of us can handle and give back in full measure but for those ones hesitating to even make their comments for fear of ridicule that has plagued dalit students in classrooms of it being replicated here also.

Will check in after the thanksgiving break,
regards
anu

@anu
>>some of us can handle and give back in full measure but for those ones hesitating to even make their comments for fear of ridicule that has plagued dalit students in classrooms of it being replicated here also.<<
thanks for your practical words ..

let this blog be simple and let it encourage everyone who read the articles to express their view..and not intimidate them.. be it some sort of educative place to those who have chosen paths other than social science…. those from social background please try to write in a lucid language thereby more and more dalits understand and engage in debates ( not the same people with arguments and counter arguments..)let it not be a monopoly of few so much so that others feel like a alien, to discussion that actually matters them..

looking forward to discussion on some pressing problems (education,health,politics,oraganizing,attrocities) and practical solutions… (and really not some Phd stuff like above.) which i feel.

i must really appreciate the level of reading of all you people..

correct me if iam wrong and ignore if out of context.

jai bheem..

regards
kanta

Kanta: Thanks for trying successfuly to reclaim this space for those who also want to learn and grow and share thoughts in a simple way. Your comments on the article are welcome as I think it is not too complicated and it is accessible to the readers.

Oh thanks mam for taking time to reply.. Initially I thought that my comments was an aberration amidst such a serious discussion of Sara and Anu , so after posting I regretted for a while and went on a mission to overcome regret. What better then Google our savior,in such a crisis. Hence I googled “how to delete comments in blogs”. Alas I found the trick just for BlogSpot and not for these kind of websites. So friends be double sure before posting the comments. ”An arrow shot, wasted time, a comment posted here “ are lost forever.

Coming to your post, I must admit I had a fleeting glance before posting my comments. So it wasn’t actually a comment but a wayward suggestion. Infact I read it like a novel rather than a serious stuff. Blame it on my reading habit. Hence nothing regarding the post was there in my comments. Another silent culprit were those illustrations which take away a good share of my grey matter. everytime I read the articles here I am forced to think whether it is a modern art or not.i spend half a time in seeing this sketches and understanding them, So after the sketches what is left of my grey matter is used to figure out such terms as ‘oxymoron’ ‘feminism’ ’womanism’ which are somewhat new to my engineering brain., Anyway thanks Rajesh Kumar for those thought provoking sketches

This is what I could gather from your post
You prefer to call your struggle as Dalit Womanism instead of Dalit Feminism. I don’t understand why you prefer so. Is it because it being oymonoric or u want your struggle to be different from the current feministic struggle. You are now conscious of your dalit identity inspite of you living like a non-Dalit (“friendly, confident, well-read, and acceptably, even if simply, dressed, and fluent in several languages.”)
>If it’s because of being an oxymoron-
As The word “Dalit” comes from the Sanskrit language, and means “ground”, “suppressed”, “crushed”, or “broken to pieces”(Wikipedia), anything positive you tend to associate it with will naturally become an “oxymoron”. Like “Dalit Pride”- does it means we are proud to be suppressed or crushed?.”Dalit Panthers”- panthers are known for their aggressiveness and definitely not the ones to be crushed or suppressed. Etc. so don’t you feel the need to change the term Dalit itself so that many positive or assertive terms can be associated with many of terms without being a “oxymoron”.
>If trying to be different-
Are you proposing this to be little different from others? I can understand that because the problem faced by dalit women is quite different from others – starting from the skin color,gender , caste and finally class. Upper caste feminists are busy with their own set of priorities. Those who have not suffered it will find it hard to associate with it. So you are trying to call the struggle with a different name which I think is justifiable.

Talking about skin color ,do you believe that your discrimination was solely because of how you look? Or was it because of the fact that u had a dalit ancestory?Why is that the media is so obsessed with so much of fairness? Leave alone in north india it is the same in southern parts where the majority are somewhat dark skinned.. When I could see a lot of Black people in western movies and news why not in India? Is there any talk in your feminist circles regarding this issue. Leave alone the news anchors even the audience in the studio are soo fair that makes one feel alienated..
Regarding your late realization- I too have realized it, like you but not after fifteen years (a bit early I must say). The worst part of this realization was to convince myself. A part of my brain said that this is all your imagination and the other said its real (subtle discriminisation)and has subconsciously affected your work life. So is this a dilemma all the educated Dalits have to live with despite doing well professionally?
“What’s in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;”- Shakespear, so what really matters is actual liberation to dalit women. Whether it is DF or DW who cares……………
Thanks mam for your encouraging words. I hope to find you people (you, anu, sara……) in media quite often in mainstream media (like Medha Patkar, Arundathi Roy ….. )talking behalf of dalit woman from our perspective.
BTW: how is the Dalit Feminism ohh sorry Dalit Womanism in Karnataka region? Is there any movement at all? In dalit convention in media one can see a lot of men but less of their better halves… so.
@ anu
Is Kuffir active in this blog?
@sara
Do u maintain a blog or a website?
-kanta

Dear Kanta: Thank you so much for writing again. I would have been very sorry indeed if you had not come back. You are asking many questions. I have posted a more detailed article related to this at http://www.countercurrents.org which you should read because I have written more there. After reading that if you have more questions I can address them. But specifically about two things: 1. the term Dalit and 2. DW in Karnataka I will respond here.

The assumption you make re Dalit is that it has negative implications, and so anything positive you join with that will be an oxymoron. LEt us turn that assumption around and say that rather than think it is negative, let us say it is an acknowledgement of our reality: for instance, the pulses - dals - which we all eat daily and are the chief source of our protein are called so because they are broken from the shell and made easier to cook. Also more valuabe and “refined” in a true sense. Can we say this is a negative development? Also the redefining of the term “Black” by the African-American population as part of thier Civil rights movement. While black used to be a synonym for ignorance, ugliness and dirt, their assertion that “Black is beautiful” actually gave a new and real paradigm shift to the understanding of the term Black, which has an implicit intention of accepting the reality and not denying something that cannot be denied. There is no doubt that Black people are also beautiful. So also Dalits are actually more human - by virtue of thier life experiences which span a wider gamut of hard knocks than others - than those considered more “privileged”. Thus we have perspectives and insights which will not be possible for those who do not go through what we or our ancestors did. Hence we can articulate at levels which others can only guess at.

The situation of Dalit women in Karnataka is an area I am specifically involved in. Let me assure you that their situation is far worse than that in Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu or Andhra PRadesh, because while in these states one can see that DW are coming together and are also visible in the movements and the literature, they are almost invisible in our state. There are many reasons for it. But as I am not so much confined only to my state but throughout the whole country due to my work as a trainer and gender activist. So we have along way to go.

>>@ anu Is Kuffir active in this blog?<<

Saar, please ask here: http://kufr.blogspot.com/ for answer to above question.

please bear with my clunky write up, i am new to these kind of stuff…so
@ cythia
thank u maam, u words encourages one to think hard however stupid/ amateurish it might be…
<>. yep, i am new to these kind of writings and hence some questions were childish i think..
i went through the article u suggested and it was more elaborate than the one posted here. and it was more logical.. the main gist of the article according to my untrained mind is..-
1. dalits women should have their own movement , lead by their own leaders, having their own agenda,
2. the above because the mainstream UC feminists have not done this so far, and u dont find them doing it near future
3. u find parallel situation with blacks in America

what i did not understood is that :
1. how dalit womanism will be different from dalit feminism?
2.is this all becoming a talking issue/ an intellectual matter or does this really matter the common dalit women who think nothing else but the next meal..
3. why is that the middle class educated dalit women is conspicuously absent from dalit movement? only those women who have studied journalism or some humanities participate in these kind of discussion? and why so..
4. (as iam from karnataka) Are there any women dalit activists or writer(excepting you) worth their name in karnataka? in karnataka too much of male domination in literature i guess…
5.what will be your five main objectives in a dalit womanism movement?
6.what should be the role of dalit men in this movement?

please answer all or choose what u feel as important and answer..

regarding “dalit” word iam “somewhat” convinced.. i still dont understand why u called “dalit feminism” as oymonoric
is it bcoz..1) feminists are totally ignoring dalit cause or 2)literal sense

u hav just ignited a spark , let us c how long it can burn

@ anu
sorry i should had done it before… (sars/sir) maam im just out of my teens and dont deserve it yet…

thanks for ur encouraging words
jai bheem…

-kanta

Kanta:

Yes, I would like to clarify two things: one, Dalit feminism is oxymoronic because I have not come across any dalit women who are “insiders” in a feminist academic/discourse context, because it is dominated by privileged women, and the discourse as it exists in the present context is built on the idea that it is possible for non-dalit women to theorise on issues of Dailt women. For this, some groundwork has been done by writing and publishing papers in English-language journals where the “gatekeepers” are also from privileged groups, and the discourse has gone on largely in academic circles or among creative writers and activists in the development sector who have kept it alive so far. In my opinion, this has gone on in sections were the common underprivileged person, especially Dalit women, have no hope or even conception of entering. Thus this concept - in my humble opinion - is lacking in the sense of being articulated and endorsed by those who have the actual experience of being dalit women. Yes, it is very true that DW thinkers in Andhra PRadesh and Tamil nadu have taken up this title and are working under this broad rubric, but again in my opinion, these women are also largely in some senses articulating from this platform or framework created not by them but by another.

This is not to condemn or disagree with the work done by pioneers, who have indeed taken the risk and trouble to articulate on the issue, when others were not. In fact, all I am doing is taking the concept further and making it more relevant (in my opinion) to the women whose concerns have yet to be addressed and whose voices are as yet undeard. And now at least one or two women from this background have written to me and told me that they support this new approach I have suggested, and one of them is going to translate the article into a state language so as to make it accessible to the interested sections in her region. So let us wait and see if there is a greater endorsement of this conception.

Hope that comprehensively answers some of your doubts about the need for a Dalit womanism. About how it differs from Dalit feminism, one thing I have already said is that it is articulated by the Dalit women for themselves at first and later to encompass the more universal experience. It is not one person’s work, many have to come in and work on it, it is a platform all who are of one mind on this can and should contribute. Hence the specificities have to be taken up based on the needs and understanding of the women who want to use this approach. I will of course be articulating this more in forthcoming publications, so as I said earlier, watch for the publication when it comes.

You remark on the absence of the middleclass educated dalit women in the dalit movement. Actually there are some women such as Motamma who is and educated dalit woman who is a political leader, Ruth Manorama who is a very well-known activist and leader, Jothi Raj who also is a respected activist. The last two do have a history of being involved in people’s struggles. I am not aware of Motamma’s political journey except after she entered public life in politics. Samata Deshmane is another academic who has also published some works and is involved in the Samata Sainik Dal. Du Saraswathi is a politically conscious Dalit woman writer who has been involved in some left-oriented cultural activities. There are one or two others like Yashoda and Venkatalakshmi from rural areas near Bangalore and Puttamma (Chamarajnagar) and Papamma (kolar dist) who are known outside thier districts. But still these are still the exceptions, and even though dalit women are found en masse in trade unions, dalit organisations working on issues, these organisations are yet to mainstream their women membership in leadership positions except one Sowbhagya who is part of the garment workers’ struggle.

thank you mam for answering so exhaustively,

happy to hear so many women (first time i heard their names) working for a cause.. reading ur response i guess they have done reasonably well with their limited resource.. yet we dont find them in regular media….are they getting enough space in our mainstream media? are they discriminated here too (media coverage)?

how is dalit situation in karnataka vis-a-vis other states? this i asked because while surfing the internet i found most of the organisatiion/ trusts/blogs/sites belonged to either maharastra/andhra or tamilnadu.. and less of karnataka?

can u suggest any article/book profiling the dalit women activism in karnataka?

looking forward to your publication..
wishing u success in all ur endeavours mam……

jai bheem
-kanta

KAnta: I am really glad that at least one voice from Karnataka is being heard asking questions and responding in this space coz this has not been the case so far. well, of the names mentioned Ruth Manorama is the most famous because she was one of the winners of the Right Livelihood award - a few years ago. The mainstream press also gives her some coverage especially the HIndu when she takes up some national issue or some state issue. Du Saraswati is quite well known in the intellectual circles in bangalore. I find it interesting that you have not heard of her. Of course the intellectual mainstream is rather male-dominated but there are some women writers. Also women writers have formed a karnataka lekhakiyara Sangha but it is mostly UC women. Also even though Bangalore is a well-known source and destination for the IT sector, the reality is that the IT sector and most other areas are dominated by more privileged sections to the exclusion of the underprivileged, and so thier presence in cyberspace is naturally very limited. Hence the reality you mention. Our people here are used to “swalpa adjust maadi” to the extent that they end up doing “jaasti adjust”, and find themselves out of most public spaces. Very little has been published on Dalit womn in Karnataka. Uma Chakravarthi, the well-known historian is from Karnataka, and she has written a book : Gendering caste: Through a Feminist lens, but it is written from the point of view of an uc woman which of course she is. There are a few passing references to dalit women in the book. But nothing as far as I know on DW in karnataka.

“Du Saraswati is quite well known in the intellectual circles in bangalore. I find it interesting that you have not heard of her.”- as iam an engineering student, i am totally new to this space (activism, rights etc). whatever i know till now is from regular media like NDTV, The Hindu, Frontline etc.. here and there i have seen Ruth Manorama interviews in these media but nothing of others.This might because she has won Right Livelihood award. Apart from her all names (including you) excepting Motamma, were new to me. these days i am surfing internet a lot so i will know them better. these alternative medialike blogs,forums unlike mainstream one will give some space to these kind of people.
its now my turn to get suprised that “nothing has been written about DW in karnataka”.- is it because
1)nothing worthy has happened in terms of activism, movements or
2)the DW problems are same as that of a Dalits in common and hence clubbed with dalit in general or
3)DW are too insignificant in the larger scheme of things to be written separately
4)DW have no problems at all
or is it sheer willful negligence from the intellectual people
hope u write something about it sometime
anyway, whether it is about Dalit Women or Dalit Men, all i like is to read about my people from my people from our perspective…
thank you mam for responding
jai bheem
-kanta

Dear Kanta : As to why there is so little written about DW in Karnataka, there are several reasons, as I remember mentioning, though I had not given the reasons. They are indeed active DW in the movement, as in any movement. But they are not seen as having a specificity. Hence their issues have been subsumed in the so-called “larger cause”. Second, there is a log tradition of ignoring women in who contribute to the work, and an invisiblising that happens everywhere, due to the patriarchy that blinds us to women’s efforts and contributions. Third, DW’s identity in particular is not somthing that society likes to acknowledge, as she is the doer of all the dirty work including sweated, insanitary and “illegal” (sexual) labour. Hence to talk about her is to acknowledge that there is such a thing as these things, which of course we do not like to admit. Better not to talk about them, therefore., is the silent consensus. Fourth, and most important, the fact is that there can be no Dalit/women’s movement worth the name which does not take on the issue of Dalit women’s economic, social and sexual subjugation specifically. because these are the real burning issues, rather like the seething lava inside the volcano which may be dormant. And the movments in Karnataka in the 80s did indeed start as a reaction not so much to land or labour issues but to atrocities on women. Songs were written, youth mobilised and struggles held around these issues. but once the movement became strong and platforms forged the familiar invisibility was again imposed. And anti-people political forces worked hard to destabilise the movement by successfully distracting the leaders from their objectives. Further, the intellectuals and leaders are, on the one hand, struggling for thier own survival and on the other, to sustain the movement; women are marginalised entirely from these discourses and spaces. But this is only a very simple answer, there are more complex reasons which are not possible to discuss on a blog post. A larger more detailed analysis will be required which is beyond the scope of this piece.

BTW, Kanta, where in Karnataka are you based? It would be good to try and have ongoing contact and interaction and not confine this only to this blog. If you wish you can respond to my gmail cynstepin@gmail.com