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Thanks Maymon for this wonderful piece and i share your pain of being a Dalit in the urban sphere. I have myself undergone through this almost whole my life and for me to assert my identity was and still is a painful process.

A big bear hug from me for your honest & heart-wrenching account

i completely agree with maymon, especially with this statement, “only persons who have experienced these would really know how painful they are.” to force somebody to come out with her/ his identity in the public is a crime! very well-written piece- direct dil se!

you said it, and so well!! not a day passes when someone in the family is not cringing at the stuff that I blog on and I am barely skimming the surface at the hidden pain, many don’t even want to know. Some routinely ask, there are so many other things you can write on, why this? I continue not writing my full name as i feel a huge responsibility for taking away this flimsy protection, that is, opening the closet door on others (family) who are not yet ready. I cannot do that just because i was ready. I wait for them.

I’ve always known that i was as smart as anyone else and showed it too, until i came to university where a fantastic job of demoralizing happened, and i am yet to recover my career graph and morale the way it should have been…. it took a few years of being in the US, of being part of some of the very best teams in my area, till i gradually realized, i didn’t have to prove anymore, they were not judging me. Often I am the only woman, only Indian, only Asian on these teams and they would blink at the most, if I told them my ancestry, this exhilarating moment is what I want every dalit to experience and that will never happen in India - it is liberating, I finally know what it feels like to breathe. One advice when you get there, steer clear of Indians there in the beginning. They are all mostly upper castes, going through a lot of angst trying to come to terms with alienation (a strange concept to them) and are looking for soft targets to continue what they practiced in India -feeling superior.

Maymon, you are more brave than i ever was and i wish a million more Maymons reach your stage, come out to inspire others. Thanks for writing this.

I also visited the ‘about’ page on this blog and loved the critical mass that it has gathered to have college educated dalits assert themselves here, at the same time… for dalit students who are visiting this site and feel that this group here has many advantages and that they all seem to be bright academically, please do not think that this is a requirement for saying what you want to say…… if the systems have continuously given many of us a feeling of underperformance, lets never, never forget -the power to reason, needs no paper qualifications.

So well articulated!!!
Lots of love Maymon

with you Maymon

love

Sigh! I frankly don’t understand this caste-nonsense that goes on in this country. Yes, I know how deeply rooted it is. I just wish everyone else was as ignorant about it as I am

All the best to you! Reach for the skies, and never ever come to a stage where you’re proud of your “Dalit” identity, just as I’m not proud of my “non-Dalit” identity

Powerful narration! I loved it.

as u said’ humiliation is humiliation. And only persons who have experienced these would really know how painful they are.’
with u…

hi maymon,
loved ur writing. Feel proud to be a Dalit.
love and regards

Similar view from my side, I have also faced the same thing, but some time I understood that only I feel bad for hiding my caste, whereas the people who asks are not. So its better to make them feel bad.
Some one asks my caste, I usually reply why u want my caste, are you going to marry your sister with me.
If still asked, I tell, I am not a shitiy hindu, neither I lick the brahmin chaturvarna system, to follow the caste. I am an Atheist, Buddhist who relish on beef.
No more questions asked

hi maymon,
Really u r living in very stressful situation and i feel very much for u but whole the life u can’t live with this.So u have to start from somewhere to overcome this fear.We r here to live a same life as OTHERS. Our ancestors never hide their identity even they fought for this. I wish u good luck for ur future…

with regards…

from A Fearless Dalit.

I thought that this facebook conversation would where I had posted this link might be interesting. Reproducing below:
Mathew Chacko: it is well written. tell me - is there a message in the title that i am not getting ??
Bobby: Mathew
that gandhi and marx are usually used to obliterate discourse on the Dalit identity - why dont you comment on the insight blog itself?
Mathew: no no! it was just a honest doubt - i have no relevant comments.

i can understand where your / others argument comes from . . . while the use of gandhi’s thoughts to obliterate discourse on dalit identity is appropriate - as in - it is consistent with gandhi himself; wouldn’t using Marx’s thoughts (having read very little of Marx) to disregard dalit identity be inconsistent and perhaps unfair to an extent . . .
Bobby: well, Marx himself was blissfully unaware of caste - the problem is South Asian (traditional) Marxists’ use of the theory through the history of Marxism here in obliterating caste.
with your permission, if you do not want to do it, can I post this discussion on the insight page?
Mathew: sure. i agree - but then most “Marxists” tend to see ’specters of marx’ everywhere . . .

dear maymon,

some of us got the link of this post from somewhere else and i had posted my comments on that, and only later i saw this blog. i hereby copy and paste comments here,

” i cannot understand why people feel boosted or dejected with their surnames / caste.

atleast the dalits have a historical right and responsibility to say that they are not ashamed of their identity (not their caste). only if they can come out of that shell, they can stand in equal footing with the so-called higher ones. this is not to say that i am not aware of the situations they face in their real life. their life is hell in most of our country. i know that. but face those humiliations upright and strike back and no other way to gain dignity to your class.

and how could you show distance to your parents (and that too to your mother) infront of others, just to hide your identity? it is a shame maymon. people shouldnt become such weak and spineless.we have seen many a characters in fictions and films who disown their parents/benefactors infront of their friends. if you do that in real life, you cannot be counted. i am not blaming you. maybe you are a much much much soft and delicate guy. but it is an undesirable limit dear maymon.

if people with nair, menon, and such tails feels high with their identity, then people like maymon should be proud that they belong to dalit or any (so-called) backward group.

but, if higher castes do not think of their names as something superior, then people like maymon shouldnt also think that they are low.

nothing more. fight and rise yourselves”

Dalit is not a “backward” group. and a Dalit’s life should not be bind wih what a caste Hindu thinks and not. Unfortunately we tend to give advices from the same brahminical platoon. Maymon, i have done the same thing wth my parents. there is nothing to be ashamed of it. This is the kind of “meritorious” training this society gives to Dalits/Bahujans. Only way out is learn to say “fuck” along with Philip and loves the way Prabin and writes the way Maymon does. Keep going. u r on the right track…
best

It makes a huge difference for a dalit and an upper-caste while adding caste as surname. the evaluation kits become different and consequently the graph of self confidence of a dalit and a UC will travel in opposite directions. it’s effortless to suggest from the other side to coming out of the shell. When I was in HCU campus, two of my progressive UC friends insisted me to put my caste along with my name as a point of political assertion. The ease with which they suggested that strategic move was remote to my understanding of resistance. Thanks Maymon,. you ve answered to those UC friends—the complexities of displaying caste identity—and what makes things different for a dalit and a UC in everyday encounters with caste. Good work. keep going….
best

In complete agreement with Anu, I wish u all the strength and courage to face this bottomless non sense and stay calm and unthreatened, always growing and achieving higher!

I do completely understand and agree with the same.Even my experience has been of similiar nature. Sometimes i do feel that i am living with dual identity. To elaborate more on the subject in detail, my name is bhanu pratap singh, so my name suggest that i am a rajput, while i belong to chamar from UP.When people get personal, they start assuming that i am a rajput, and really never felt to tell them the truth,even though many times some people do use abusive language like” saale chamar log..” or for that matter as usual abusive language for mayawati or BSP..

But almost on each and every time i have been silent.. listen to them with a pinch of salt.. smiled and moved on the topic.. the question can be debated wether my reaction is right or wrong… But trually and frankly speaking i have never felt wrong…

For me the reason is quite simple.. I proud of myself for what i am .. about my roots and my commitment and deep attachment to ambedkarism..

But thats my innerself.. my soul.. and i do not feel any thing wrong as long as i am commited to ambedkarism…

But why should i show my innerself , my feelings to outer world…??

For i belong to corporate world.., for the world and people , i am a high-profile technical sales consultant, and i have worked for various MNC’s and my world relationship is everything..

for i have to develop the relationship in the market and with relations business happens, which is my key responsibilities, for which i am paid huge salary..

The question is , if people know about my true identity, that instead of rajput, i am a chamar… would i have got the same success, would i have been able to make relationship in industry so well, had people knew my true indentity..

I doubt so…..

In a year or so , i am planning to get married… its my heartly desire and my parents too, that marriage should happen, with budhistic rituals in front of babasaheb photo.. and also, with all the dhoom-dham.. , and i want it to be private small event..

for, i am not able to decide, should it be big dhoom-dham and i shouldn’t invite my industry people in marriage… or i can avoid inviting them by saying, its a small private affair..

Well thats the dilemma.. i am ready to face, But can i play with my success by revealing my true identity…???

wonderful introspection Maymon and Anu. Very inspiring.

PSB,

I won’t preach or encourage you to reveal your identity. I ‘ll offer my reasoning towards it-and what I do/did, as Maymon and Anu have so beautifully done here and hope it helps.

it is easier said than done to shrug off the advantage of a caste-hindu identity. I declared myself atheist when I was in 5th standard (that time I didn’t have to reveal my caste as in a village everyone knew it), but even in college i let people assume, in moments of weakness, that i was ‘caste-hindu’. When I think about it, if upper-caste-identification is so precious, how can we expect the caste-hindus to throw caste, and the benefits it brings, away? If the situation justifies you to hide your identity, it also justifies retaining the caste structure by the caste-hindus. On the other hand, your inability of reveal your identity, which is expressed here, is a case against caste. For me, whether this situation is a case against or for caste depends upon how eager you are to reveal/hide your dalit identity.

As Ratheesh says, revealing your caste is a strategic move for a dalit. What I think is revealing your caste without asserting it is useless or even harmful. It is through my opinions and arguments that I reveal my identity. My experience, my opinions and arguments, my belongingness to dalit people constitute my identity which yearn to be recognised, not just my caste and surname.

Conclusion of my post:

We have to raise our kids without the divisional poison. Yes, discrimination in Indian society still exists. However, in metros, college-educated, corporate sections of the society, performance is beginning to matter to a larger extent. My opinion is that Dalit people (or anyone) ought to own their identity, only if pressed, in such a way that says, “Look, I know where I come from, and I am not afraid to admit it, but you look stupid to ask me this.” Even if it means being disadvantaged in some situations, the confidence of identity division mongers needs to be broken. This will create awareness about places where discrimination exists, while the success stories that come out of it will be an inspiration to Dalits and non-Dalits alike. Living in a phobia and making the problem bigger than it is will not help anyone.

Childhood Innocence:

I still don’t know exactly what caste I belong to. Perhaps a Vaishya or a Kshatriya. Definitely neither a Dalit nor a Brahmin, usually the two groups that are most caste aware. I did not even know what exactly caste meant until I went to college. Although I had heard words like ChuDaa or Chamaar in pejorative sense in childhood, I was never aware of people’s caste identity or even religious identity as distinct from other aspects of their identity such as mother tongue or region. So, I thought some people were Punjabis, some were from UP, and some were Muslim, and some were Christian, but that was all there was to it. No one was better or worse, just different. But, then perhaps my childhood innocence was either not unique, or it was because I grew up in an army environment, where a lot of my dad’s colleagues and friends were different people than us, whatever “us” means. It was my mom who made some verbal distinction between people (but not in her behavior), not my dad. This was generally true until I heard of the Mandal Commission.

Rude Awakening:

World outside the army cantonment, when I went to +2 and college thereafter was a rude awakening. That is when I came to know that some got admitted to the college through the “regular” route, and others through “reserved” route. A close friend of mine could not get into the esteemed college to which I went. However, another schoolmate, who was had the Dalit tag (I was not even aware of his Dalit identity until time for college came) got in, in spite of being lesser qualified and equally privileged from family’s economic and educational background point of view compared to my close friend who did not get in. Only some Dalits in my college came from truly underprivileged backgrounds. Although, the reservation system seemed very flawed, that is when I also came to know that it is an unfortunate thing being poor, and much more unfortunate being poor and Dalit.

An India Moving Towards the Better:

Once in the college, most people seemed open-minded enough and did not discriminate who they associated with, except when it came to ideas and interests. Dalits were treated just like everyone else, except those who stuck to their own clans and did not intermingle. This was true for any clan, be it Bengali or Tamil, and not just Dalits. And I am pretty sure that my friends from college (Dalits and non-Dalits alike), and I would not think of Caste or religion as a consideration when deciding on who to promote or who to hire. Things that will matter are merit and open-mindedness. Are people from my college a unique case? I do not think so. I think a large section of Indian society is moving towards the better.

Psychological Impact of Being Identity Unaware:

While my childhood oblivion does not erase the wrongs of history against Dalits or other underprivileged people, I think that this oblivion was largely responsible in making me who I am today. I have married outside my community, almost in a historically opposite clan (not because I meant to, but because I fell in love). And when my parents raised an objection when I introduced my would-be wife to them, I reminded them they never raised me to distinguish between people while bringing me up, and now they were suddenly clan aware. But then “marriage within the community”, whether arranged or not, is largely responsible for keeping society divided along these lines. My parents quickly realized their mistake (good for them, I had made up my mind anyway), and are now happy with my life choice. I believe that any open-mindedness that I have today has largely to do with how I was raised - without a strong “communal” identity (using the word “communal” the way it is used in “communal riots” and not “community service” in a local area). I think if we raise our kids with a strong identity without the caveat that “be aware of history (discrimination) and current affairs (reservations), but do not play the victim”, we will never get out of this mutual distrust, phobias, and hatred. And one way to do this is for privileged Dalits to voluntarily give up reservations, and for society to work on primary education, non-discrimination, deregulation and credit availability such that reservations become unnecessary.

Hai Maymon..now you are not hiding your dalit identity anymore.. you have exposed it here. You showed courage to tell about it in this forum, but couldn’t do it so in front of the people around you face to face. But, why did you tell about your dalit identity in this blog? Is it, to get sympathy from others or to come out of your dalit identity which you have created for yourself (you may say society created it, but you and me constitute that society). Maymon, think about your real identity..isn’t it , the “human being”. I don’t see your identity as dalit. I see u as human being. And be that in being of human. Come out of the identity you have created and act fully with all your fears that are with in. Courage is to act with all our fears and not be fearless. I appreciate your courage you have showed here and bring forward that courage further. Thank You ..
-Sunil

I fully agree with Amit. I have also been brought up in a family where no difference was observed due to caste and culture. My parents have treated all of their and our friends equally. We have always gone by first name rather than second or third name. That’s why till now i can’t understand in my mind and heart “Why do people differentiate among each other”. Why our born identity lead to discrimination against our earned identity. Where one has taken birth, is beyond one’s control. We are Indian. We should be proud of being Indian. Lets all of us have one identity of ‘Being Indian’ and ‘Human Being’. We should be upfront regarding our identity of being a human who has been sent by God to spread Love and Affection. Love doesn’t see the caste and religion. It doesn’t have any boundary. Love one and all. I have seen my father hearing the tag of outsiders because of working in other than home state. I have never been able to explain to my classmates what does my caste means. I say that in my house there is ‘Unity in Diversity’ due to amalgamation of varied castes and I am proud for it. I am proud to be a ‘Human Being’.

I appreciate the simple honesty with which you have shared your experiences and fears, and I wish that a time will come when such fears will dissipate.

Just want to point out that sometimes the so called “Upper Castes” also feel uncomfortable revealing their caste identity and affiliations, and it is not always easy. That’s the thing with the caste system isn’t it? Because of what your last name (in most cases, though sometimes it may be the first name as well) connotes about the person you are, and because of the manner in which you are consequently perceived by others it has the ability to lead many people to feel uncomfortable with the caste they allegedly belong to - upper or lower.

While it is important to understand the discomfort or fear that Dalits or any other marginalised groups of persons may feel in revealing their ‘true’ identities, it is also important to bear in mind the fact that many “upper caste” individuals might not like to reveal that aspect of themselves because they do not wish any caste identity or association to be automatically assumed and imposed on them just because of what their name happens to be.

Only then can we really grasp the dangers of viewing others through caste coloured lenses and the damaging effect it has on people.

I also like Unsung Psalm’s comment above as an ideal to strive towards. To be comfortable with one’s identity is a better ideal to strive towards than to be proud of it. Achievements- our own and those of others- are things to be proud of. Even our personal attributes- who we are as individuals, how we relate to and treat others on a daily basis, what we think and feel or how we act- that grow out of our unique individual experiences, reflection and learning, are things we can be proud of.

Not which country or family we happen to be born into.

To that extent, the actual movement that leads to ending the oppression and discrimination of any group of persons is a human achievement in itself, and one that we can take pride in. I think the foundations of it will be healthier if they are grounded in being comfortable with who one is (in terms of one’s group identity), rather than proclaiming any pride in the same.

Dear Amit and Vinita,

I share some of your feelings from my childhood. But I have a little more to add. (This was initially written as a comment at one blog post by another friend of mine.

Like in many Keralite CPM families, I was also brought up with a belief that caste did not exist in Kerala any more. But as I grew up I could see that wasn’t the case. I heard even progressive people in my close surroundings (who I respected otherwise) making fun of a ‘parayan’ or ‘pulayan’ who got to a position of power (in the recent past there was a critique of an old Malayalam short story by C V Sreeraman on similar lines.. I believe it was a very CPM thing. The times have surely changed, CPM has also started admitting that caste exists. But even in this age there are ‘revolutionary’ films like Mayookham coming out in Malayalam.)

I my school and college I had many friends from dalit and other backward communities, but when I went to engineering college, the difference was stark. ‘Quota’ people suddenly became outsiders. I felt bad about it, but I could not escape it.

During my M.Tech. time I was shocked when a friend’s mother (who is also very ‘progressive’) advised me that it is ok to find a girl of your choice, just make sure that she is not a pattika or kazhukkol. (In Malayalam, scheduled castes/scheduled tribes are ‘pattika jathi/pattika vargam‘)

Even as I felt shocked at that comment, I realized that the way our society is designed, it is unlikely that I’d go for a pattika. (I had a crush on a fair, Iyengar girl at that time). Even my dalit male friends have complained that it is difficult to find a good girl in their community, because they are all dark. Even in Tamil films, the heroine singing ‘Karupputhaan enakku pidicha kalaru‘ (’black is the colour I like..’ the hero is dark) is essentially of the fairer kind. I still work with such issues internally, even though my beauty concepts have changed quite a lot over years.

It is not just the skin colour — we often end up discriminating based one one’s fluency in English (or language in general), staying ‘calm’ in a debate, even the confidence levels with which one speaks. (These qualities come much easier to those who are born in ‘upper’ castes. That also I realized much late in my life, thanks to the ‘non-discriminatory’ childhood.)

I think it is important to work on the discriminatory elements in ourselves (even if one does not discrimate intentionally on caste lines), and to find out how others work on it. It has not been easy, one may not have the energy for that always, but I have tried that whenever I could, and have found that people do change over time. Even if I am most comfortable with people from same/similar communities.

How all can we address this issue in a more public space is also not a simple one. A lawyer friend was saying in their law college in Bangalore, they fought and achieved a system where the names (of reserved category students) were not listed separately. It is debatable how much would that help. I feel it is more important to bring about an awareness that reservations are not a favour that we (when I speak as an ‘upper caste’) do to some people, it is something that is essential and beneficial to all of us in many ways.

-sudeep

[I'm leaving it here for now. I know it does look incomplete.. maybe someone else can continue from here.]

PS (Somewhat off-topic, to Vinita: You say “Where one has taken birth, is beyond one’s control.” So why is it that “We are Indian”?)

There are two kinds of SC/ST people. First kind are those hounded by goons of Ranvir Sena and denied access to village wells. The second are those with internet connections. Some of the second kind play victims of discrimination in spheres where they are largely living comfortable lives. It is like if Shah Rukh Khan was to say that producers will not sign him if he revealed his muslim identity. I do not deny that there are some bigoted people who view SRK not as a human or actor, but as a muslim, but that does not hinder his ability to advance his life… not in the part of India that I regularly deal with.

Get out of this vicious cycle of victimhood already. And do something for the people living the life of an actual dalit instead of blogging about little sorrows of your life blown out of proportion.

If you think you are low the world will look down upon you

If you think you need support to stand even when you have able feet the world will support you and smile wickedly behind your back.

I come from a religion where my god eats half eaten fruits from the hands of a so called lowly caste of people .

Please do not disrespect his respect.

@satya
great invention.. but ur review of literature seems to be faulty…i think Brahmanwallas have already defined using the “divide and rule” brahmincal policy that there are 33333 types of SC/ST people… and perhaps hindu scrpts call them gods and goddesses.. and sam pitroda has entered the village with telephone and internet yaar.. that means dalits in the village will be counter attacking ranvir senas and at the same time blogging and also givng apt reply to some meritorious “satya vachans”
and those having internet connections have to face Ranvir senas in universities/IITs/IIMs/govt offices/Schools/bank/liquor shop/brothel home/toilet/VC office/police station etc etc…
both, in fact 33333 types of SC/ST people are fighting “meritorious” ranvir senas…
satya ke siva kuch nahei boltei hum
satya meva jayate!

Dear Satya,

There was an ‘actual’ dalit. Now dead. A blog is out there dedicated to him. And you know what, i wish he was blogging now instead of being dead. His parents, his village, and yes the rest of us wish that he had got out of victimhood, for it was not water that was denied to him by goons, but life by ‘professors’. And just in case you are a successful dalit living outside of victimhood. Congratulations on your clear, blessed views on the ways of life especially others lives, be it SRK, muslims or dalits.

If you are practicing being a troll knight, nobody cares to engage with your internet connecting, abuse/advice giving abilities, but if you do have reasonable views to engage us lesser mortals, you might be surprised that there are quite a few of us who will hold the debate on victimhood, media manipulation by celebrities and such. So, looking forward to see if you are troll, an enlightened dalit or one interested in laying out an argument. Pleas do shine some truth.

Best
anu

So, what’s Gandhi and Marx doin’ in your story, bro?

Why refer to people you don’t engage with? Or, is it Marx and Gandhi’s fault that a few people who (mis)read them are ignorant or unsympathetic about your psycho-social condition?

@maya
heard abt Poona Pact?.. there u can catch this Mahatma
no need for any one to (mis)read GAndhi to understand his crooked anti-DAlit stand. And Marx’s theoretical limitation has been exposed by feminist, Black and caste discourses
thanks

http://thefishpond.in/ratheeshkumar/2009/friendships-ins-outs-and-in-betweens/

Maymon’s article has been discussed in another discussion forum. A post by Bobby in that group talks about a controversy that apparently led to the development of this piece finally getting published in Insight. It was an issue of rejection of this piece by another media space according to Bobby’s remarks. I would like to share it with Insight readers.

Bobby wrote: “Maymon had originally written this piece with the intention of publishing it in a media space that is not identifiable with any identity group. The piece (inspite of its “merits” or “content”) was apparently rejected….

On this particular issue, I request Bobby to provide some more info since certain amount of detailing will help insight readers to understand what actually happened in the whole episode—behind the acts of rejection, re-sending, publication and so on; especially the rejection part—as I feel things need to be exposed if it’s a caste based discrimination as per ur argument; and which media space? on what grounds? what are the issues behind rejecting the article?. (I rather like to ask these questions straight to Maymon, but he seems to be absent in the entire discussion)

Bobby says: “Once it was published there have been comments gushing forth from all sides - but I do read a subtle (not overt or conscious) castiesm in the way that this piece finally gets to be published in a dalit portal - which is non- inclusiive (and I am glad about it). I do not want to dwell too much on theorising (lest it be dismissed as “post-modern) - but this where I see solidarity that is based on marginalised identity evolving into platform spaces that are exclusivis”t.

Can u explain a bit on this ‘subtle castiesm’ here, being dalit and getting published in a space that is ‘exclusivist’ according to ur reading?
If you stand strongly against castiesm and seem to be touched by the dalit autobiographical notes, I wonder why you remained silent when A S Ajith Kumar presented a similar dalit narrative—( http://thefishpond.in/ajithkumar/2009/jukebox-diaries-1/) in another blog where you are an active participant. And now after showering your love on Maymon’s article in Insight, in another discussion forum, you are talking about the interplays of castiesm, non-inclusive space, postmodernism and so on in the whole episode. Why don’t you discuss all those issues here so that insight readers can also participate in it since Maymon posted his piece here.

Bobby further claims: “ Maymon happens to be a friend of mine too and obliquely I was a participant in the events that led to the publication of this piece in Insight…..
…and when Maymon was disappointed with this rejection some of us suggested that he approach insight - which is a Dalit student portal”.

Here, I would say that the movie by Rupesh Kumar (posted by Ranjith in Insight), speaks out everything. “YOU DON’T BE MY FATHER” Dalit Memories: A Video Story of Caste in Keralam
You can watch it here –http://blog.insightyv.com/?p=170 — at least the last part of the movie.

Best.

Bobby says: “Once it was published there have been comments gushing forth from all sides - but I do read a subtle (not overt or conscious) castiesm in the way that this piece finally gets to be published in a dalit portal - which is non- inclusiive (and I am glad about it). I do not want to dwell too much on theorising (lest it be dismissed as “post-modern) - but this where I see solidarity that is based on marginalised identity evolving into platform spaces that are exclusivis”t.

I would request Bobby to clarify the statement that insight is “non-inclusive”.
Welcome bobby
thanks

One solution to the problem is reservation based on class rather than caste. This will not bring a lot of wrath against any particular caste. At the same time, all the backward people will be benefitted.

Dear Vishwanath,

How conviently people can puke out twisted logics ! I really marvel.

Please come out of your narrowminded views that equate caste violence against Dalits with reservation. In our entire history, noone has raped us, killed us, burnt our houses saying that we are doing so becasue of you guys geting reservation. They have done so because they beleive that we deserve it being born in low caste..untouchabilty, caste-violence, hatred, exclusion towards dalit men and women had little longer history than the promulgation of indian constution in 1950 and its provision of reservation for SC/STs.

If that was so we wud have witnessed lots of killings and rapings of OBC people after Mandal-1. Do you have guts to do so ? They will beat the hell out of you…u cant even think of bringing such thoughts in your mind

Dear Ratheesh (Ranju - though this is addressed to Ratheesh, I will also be making a clarification on my statement)
You jumped the gun and posted my mail to the other group - FEC - without waiting for the permission that you had asked of me in that grioup. And your jumping into conclusions without clarifying the context has, to say the least hurt me.
On detailing, I am sure that Maymon would provide further details, since it has appeared here.
I will stick to the questions on my comments
My comments about non- inclusive spaces is w.r.t discussions that have been happening in FEC for a long time in the context of so-called non-inclusive organisations such as BSP, PFI (formerly NDF) etc. (ratheesh being a member of FEC can find these discussions in the archives). FEC being an UC male dominated space, which constantly attacks these spaces, my arguments (a minority in that group) consistentlly have been that non-inclusive solidarity spaces can be empowering. I was expecting responses on that in FEC - given this histiory of arguments. And in that context, that post was meant for FEC - period!!

My reference to Maymon as friend too was because the original post in FEC was made by another friend of Maymon’s.

I hope Ratheesh will give me enough freedom to decide which post I want to comment on and which I do not and I do not feel obliged to cater to Ratheesh’s exacting standards on that to convince anyone on what my politics is

Best

Once it was published there have been comments gushing forth from all sides - but I do read a subtle (not overt or conscious) castiesm in the way that this piece finally gets to be published in a dalit portal - which is non- inclusiive (and I am glad about it). I do not want to dwell too much on theorising (lest it be dismissed as “post-modern) - but this where I see solidarity that is based on marginalised identity evolving into platform spaces that are exclusivis”t.

This comment was made in the context of some members of FEC rubbishing arguments on idnetity as “post-modern” - with a patronizing acknowledgment of identity politics articulated in terms dicted by certain kind of “progressiveness”. And in that sense Rupesh Kumar’s video is an apt response. I do not claim to mentor Maymon at any level and I continue to assert that I love him for what he is. I hope that is not central to the questions asked of me

bobby,
my question was something different. i asked: kindly clarify why do u think that insight is “non-inclusive”?
u have also commented that in the previous post BSP is “non-inclusive”. how can it be so?
could u clarify pls?

Ranju
I do not think either BSP, Insight or PFI is “non-inclusive”. I was using labels that have been constantly used in FEC to stake my claim that one is proud that these kind of fora are assertvie even if they are labelled non-inclusive
why i mentioned that post was specifically in the context of FEC

Thanks Bobby for clarifying it. I am not on FEC but I can imagine what an upper-caste, CPM, Mallu male space thinks of BSP, NDF or even Insight. (I have argued with them once in a while, but I don’t expect much change in their attitude).

However, these are not as much non-inclusive as they want us to believe (Talk of PFI — Chekkutty is not a Muslim). I was told that anyone could post on Insight — caste, gender, sexual orientation etc no bar — as long as you hate the caste system and its discriminative ways. I’d love to be part of Insight with that much understanding rather than go for an ‘inclusive’ platform where one does not care ‘who you are, what you think, as long as you add to our page views’.

thanks for the clarification bobby

As long as a comment/post is in open forum, I dont think any permission is required to quote it elsewhere. I appreciate Ratheesh for bringing out this issue which warranted Bobby’s clarification. And if there was any politics behind rejection/publication of Maymon’s post, I think, it was worth a mention in here, along with anywhere else, since broadly that’s what the post about.

Thanks

@ Sudeep,

You are welcome.

@ Prabin

Thanks prabin , for ur suggestion …
however, I would like to say the identity and the impact in which it affects, various dalit students and proffessionals ; is quite complex and so well understood.. though its one of the most important issue which every dalit student/proffessionals has to confront day in day out, and how they handle it…
my experience shows that one of the worst effect it has,is that it inflict many of them with inferiority comlex and results in underpermance..
the issue is very critical and hence needs to be debated widely and deeper sence…
I have few stories which I would like to share, and post it for further discussion… in the wider interest of students and professionals on various ways and means to deal with such challenges.

@Ratheesh

On this particular issue, I request Bobby to provide some more info since certain amount of detailing will help insight readers to understand what actually happened in the whole episode—behind the acts of rejection, re-sending, publication and so on; especially the rejection part—as I feel things need to be exposed if it’s a caste based discrimination as per ur argument; and which media space? on what grounds? what are the issues behind rejecting the article?. (I rather like to ask these questions straight to Maymon, but he seems to be absent in the entire discussion)

I dont think it was a caste-based discrimination. “we need to balance between dalit issues and other issues, so if it is selected we need to hold it sometime before publication” was the response from the editors of that mediaspace. And later I got response like “Thanks for sending us your article, We feel it is more suited as a comment to Ajithkumar’s Post than an independent article”. It was the first time I dared to talk in public about my identity, and I felt dejected. A more soothing reply came from another editor a day after, but emotional damage has already been done. So decided to work more on it, added more sentences, removed few references and searched for another platform to publish it.

I tried to write another piece which is not a dalit issue(for the same mediaspace), but again this was returned back asking me do more background study on it. I never wanted to do that, as it was not my primary area and posted it on my friend’s blog http://sudeepsdiary.blogspot.com/2009/06/dialogue-with-maymon-when-france-bans.html.

I had shared whole this experience with Bobby, and I dont think it is any kind of patronising.

Maymon,

thanks for clarification.

PSB,

agree with you, you ‘re welcome to share.

Maymon, thanks for ur response. I m sure rejection will hurt any author. It can happen with many reasons and u ve clearly stated that it was not an issue of caste (that was my prime concern and that’s why I tried for an open discussion). But this rejection issue has been propagated in other public and private spaces, for what purpose and that too in the absence of ur voice- I was getting no clues on those things.
best

@ Mr. Vivek nair

“I come from a religion where my god eats half eaten fruits from the hands of a so called lowly caste of people .”

While saying so, you forgot… i would rather say smartly ignored the fact, that the same god went on killing a shambook, a shudra, for he dared to learn and gain the knowledge….

and if thats not shameful, most of followers of ur religion project the same god as “maryada-purushottam”… has the maryada stooped so low!!!!

Mr. gandhi(so called mahatma..), one of the major propagandist of the so-called maryada, has called it as ideal “raj-dharma” and called it as “ram-rajya”… any doubt .. how he followed it…??

When it came to giving the rights to dalits for an honorable representaion, in the state polity, he applied all his crooked mind, to thwart any attemt for the same.. his shameless underhand-dealing , with the then muslim leaders(that if muslim leaders support mr. gandhi for opposing untachables demand, he will agree for all demands of muslim leaders, including thier demand for seperate communal electorate..) and when muslim leaders, called his bluff(for wisdom prevailed in thier mind, that if mr. gandhi can ditch untouchables, by asking our suppurt…why he wont ditch us tommorrow???)
and after failing to do so went on for shameless hunger-strike fast-unto-death!!!!

another propagandist of our time , BJP, who claims for ramrajya, have shown us what ramrajya is in gujrat and orrisa..

any expanation for the same???

Any comment on.. why even after 62 years of independence, no one in this country ashamed even which, that till date Dronacharya award is given ideal teacher and arjuna award for ideal students!!!!

so dont bring ur religious ideals, cozz there will be as many holes as u can count..
Though many of my reaction may hurt you…But then when u say say… you will aslo admit that the feelings of “Shambook’s” and “Eklavya’s” are not considerable..

The mail that has been quoted by Mr. Maymon here is mine, hence this response.

As Mr.Maymon’s reply itself clarifies the whole incident had been a routine dilemma faced by any publishing space in its teething stage and had nothing to do with any ‘discrimination’ or ‘harassment’ as some malicious individuals have been methodically gossiping.

As one of the founder editors of “The Fish pond” I am amazed how a domain hardly 50 days old could create so much anxiety and ill will amongst certain persons.

For the sake of transparency we have decided to post the entire written communication between Mr.Maymon and Fishpond. It’s available on : http://is.gd/1D5G5

Dear Ratheesh,
I do see a ’subtle casteism’ in this rejection, even as Maymon says it was not caste-based discrimination. If you do not see it even after reading the response lines (’balance between dalit issues and other issues’ or ‘this suits better as a comment in that other Dalit post’), and if you believe ‘rejection hurts everyone’ is a casteless phenomena, I suggest that you read one blog post by one my friend, on how some people feel silenced and remain silent all their life. (Link here.)

When I say ’subtle casteism’, I don’t think it was intentionally discriminating based on caste. (Bobby also says ‘subtle (not overt or conscious) castiesm‘, as quoted by Ratheesh). I feel this kind of ’subtle casteism’ we all do practice in our lives unknowingly many times. I have realized how I have done it without knowing it, and have tried to do better in a similar situation later, as far as possible. I hope these editors also do attempt to reflect on it once. I do not have anything against them or against their mediaspace personally.

Thanks Anivar for posting the communication between fishpond and Maymon here - vindicates my reading of the events. And let me assert that I have absolutely no ill-will against fishpond, on the contrary I find it to be of extreme relevance, why I am an active participant/contributor there.
Having said that, I thought that I should flag for the general ambiance of this discussion that a friend of mine, who was not following this thread has (I am glad that he did it) re-started the discussion in FEC and he tells me (on mail) “Today I got a mail from unknown sender with a just a link. I was worried first to look at it bcoz it may contain virus. But the mail text indicated that it is a critique of FEC.” I find this attention given to my cyber-activity rather flattering. On that note, I think I am going to go silent on this thread

Dear Sudeep, Ratheesh, Bobby, Maymon, Anivar and others

Thanks so much for your comments on inclusion/rejection of this article in Fishpond. Round Table as a platform for discussion, debates on such issues, I feel, as its reader and member, is privileged to be part of this very important debate. However, now I feel that since everyone concened had made their points clear and have participated in this debate, can I request you guys to focus back on the content of the article itself rather than making comments on inclusion/rejection of this article elsewhere..

identities.. playing roles, finally i lost myself. i cant figure out what i really am.. i too am in technical circles, which is usually very uppercaste, and i fail to assert myself with my average looks and not-at-all techie language and bad logical skills and no relatives in the field which i have chosen.. to maintain good relation with my techie friends, i sometimes have to be silent about reservation fights, about feminism, about pre marital sex, about use of drugs..

while in college i realised that its the backward/ dalit people who usually excel in arts and its the others in science and technology. being also a woman, i was suggested such options for my career,but i decided to take up technology. and i still struggle. i want to be different. i know that i am noy yet successful, but i know i will be.

i belong to a backward community, and sometimes its amusing to see my folks trying to emulate uppercaste behaviours. and trying to mould me in those ways. they deride dalits for grabbing all the reservations, but themselves take the advantages of reservation sometimes, get frustrated about not getting enough attention from others because their skin is black and appearance ‘not-very-impressive’ ,and discard black skinned men from the grooms list when they look for a relation for their daughter, hold dalits responsible for all the student strikes, accuse that the most inefficient people in a govt office will be dalits.. and this comes from my very educated parents, who reads two news papers per day and two weeklys per week. when i grew up enough, i had a heated discussion with my parents about this, and afterwards they avoided raising these issues in my presence. but i know their attidude has not changed even a bit. and so is most others, and there isnt usually even the space for a discussion.

but i know, we are all human beings, with the same spirit, and any kind of oppression can not remain forever. i believe that, i am sure about that, as much i am sure about my existence.

>>who reads two news papers per day and two weeklys per week.<<<

Dear Girl, interrupted

This is the precise reason why they believe that dalits are inefficient. Forget about others u will find many dalits sharing the same sentiments because this is what is fed by our media which openly working as upper caste propaganda machinery.

That complex dynamics of caste identity are at play in our society today, is something everyone can be expected to know and acknowledge. Inside this arena, it is not uncommon that the process of coming to terms with one’s dalit identity, particularly for the middle class dalit child who grows up in a space which is otherwise a stronghold of the upper castes, has its psychological stresses. This needs to be acknowledged by everyone. We know what are the factors that contribute to induce and aggravate this stress. Our effort should be to work towards easy availability of greater support and solidarity for all such dalit children and young adults. Let this be an ongoing effort. I understand the odds that individuals and organizations doing meaningful and serious work in relation to dalit rights and identity. I amire your resolve and your struggle. I also understand that today much remains to be done to bring even a semblance of dignity to the lives of a great section of the dalit population. In the backdrop of this giant task ahead, the plight of the already middle class dalit child mentioned in the article above may seem to some to be a rather juvenile sort of whinning. But it is a plight unique to the child so placed. I am no expert on the richter scale of trauma. But I believe, trauma of all sort erodes and blows holes into the self. Some of us must discuss and educate ourselves on what can be done to address this common experience. Perhaps educational institutes need to be sensitised to this problem and induced to create a more vibrant environment where such individual stresses are not sweeped under the carpet but addresses directly and confidently as systemic without creating any hostility. However, one of the the larger ideals should remain the rejection of formal religion itself. Religion is quite unnecessary and nothing short of its rejection will do.

I think we need to make people visit premordial identities. I believe wealth generated by reforms has actually reinforced identities in our shining india. But let me tell you, it is not only dalits now traditional occupational castes are also hiding their identities for fear of discrimination. Mera Bharat ajeeb!

Mention of certain ‘castes’ to imply derogation to the people categorised under those castes and how they try to cope with the anguish it causes in them is central to this posting. To what extent such anguish affects their childhood innocence; sense of belongingness, right to exist; relationship, world view, social behaviour etc is nobody’s concern in India is not accidental, it is deliberate.

Caste segregation in India is one social tool created for economic exploitation- to sensitise a section of its population to their own natural features as inborn failures so that they never think of themselves as deserving better or equal with others to lay claim on country’s natural resources. Not only that when their lowness was pronounced as by god’s divination it became a built-in ’spirituality’ of them.

That is why as India is becoming more and more economically competitive and as its lower ‘caste’ categories are showing ability to have a crack at that economy its so called ‘upper’ are getting keen on those questions about ‘castes’, surname, allegiance to worship etc.

The purpose is to turn their attention to all those old stories and to remind them of their ‘lowness’.

I appreciate Memom for his courage to redress his qualms through coming open like this. It is not easy. It is a multifaceted fight, within oneself, against ‘god’, against the ‘world’, against the ‘truth’ and so on.

Also, Fighting against caste cannot be equated with the fight of the Dalits, it is the fight of every Indian because caste segregation in India is a splotch on Indian humanity.

:), good article by Maymon, he is my near friend personally. I stand for a caste system(of love and respect and what we do), but certainly understand this man’s feelings thanks for writing.

And Anivar, you seems to have edited your response somewhere in between in the caht with May as you yourself claim later You have said only “this”, not “that”. That “this” is missing :), Hey, May, don’t you see the Class system of Money and Power? I stand for Dharma/Justice. Many live in the names of Dalit, Feminist, other issues to cover their personal defects I know. Thats bad and thats where I see a caste. Its made by our life. Equal opportunity..socialism..are stupid things. Rat is rat, bird is bird, Lion is lion, Any comments? All of us need to live(and die) happily. Without cheating and hurting others. If we talk of classes and caste based on what we do, one may be: People who give, People who give and take and People who take. Certainly the balance is important. and people love who give. another classification according to food, one kills and eat, one kills and give life, one gives life only. Here too, balance is best. (a cooked food is killed food-note!) Classification according to attitude: some live their own, some take other’s and live and some in balance. Who will we love and respect? One more, based on “what we do” for living, some increase the life on earth, some decrease it, some in between. Planting trees and loving comes to first category, constructing malls and buildings and hatred come to second.

In todays’ world think who are where are. The Govt., The multinationals, (with Its servants) and the people who are displaced. Think about the animals who are displaced. Think about the plants that are displced Who are we and where!

Don’t waste time tio think on caste otherwise. Its only when we live stupid lives we get stupid responses. Thats the philosophy I believe. Yes, there too is classification, some stick to life by anything, some prefer death.

Love. Subid.

oh i got it subid
our poor gandhi lived a stupid life and got a stupid response from a stupid person using a stupid object called gun…
thanks for the info
love

Ya!!!!

And regarding his other post, if somebody here has read it, I stand by him, approving banning of burkhas as a good thing. Common places should have common laws that is Good for Life. No one has a right to be stupid.

@subid
I was just kidding..sorry

kidding always good

@subid, it is a phone conversation in malayalam. I specifically said written communication between fishpond & maymon.

True, Anivar. BUT, fact is stupids think that was the only communication.

Dear Maymon,
You said it very touching.
ചിത്രകാരന്റെ അഭിവാദ്യങ്ങള്‍.

i guess this post is no more active in terms of comments, i went through this discussion today s and felt like commenting .
reading some of the comments i felt that few are acting a bit more. most of them have no qualms while getting benefits from government while studying. but when they get into profession some thing changes… why is this so? think for a while if Dr.Ambdekar too had seen to his professional interests only? he had degrees from foreign university .. be proud that after so much of oppression we could still live a respectable life….

Dear Kanta, after reading your comments in this post and other posts, I also feel that some people are acting a bit more

<>

i only intended to convey that, dont feel bad about ur dalit ancestory.. be proud that u belong to a community that has given a greatest humanist of all time,a champion in his own right, intellectual that is babsaheb Dr. B R Ambedkar.. when v have got an intellectual as our leader why to feel low? v dont have to lead a double/treble lives……this is what v want to tell to our future generation….thats it. and nothing else

if anybody felt offended by my comments(”some ppl acting a bit more”),, im sorry

jai bheem
- kanta

<>
copy and paste doesnt work here ,i guess… so i had to type here again the comments of Ankit Verma..

Superb Artycle.
vry touching indeed
wit u Maymon..